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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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LOL. If it is the "quality of the experience" then there are only two who could rate it.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Chop the Compressor Route.
Wait on death sentencing this route until further first hand assessments are available.
Something tells me this thread will go over 400.
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ec
climber
ca
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TIG, You got that exactly right!
Our opinions don't really matter...What's done is done.
 ec
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Last time I checked, someone was very near to chopping the compressor route before people made a HUGE deal about that possibility.
I'm not necessarily pro or con chopping "Growing Up", but since we're gambling a lot already:
If no one chops this route before it sees twelve ascents, I bet 50 postcards it won't get chopped at all, a la popularity. People will flip over a chop.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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"When you do an FA of your own rap bolted route, it's like doing someone else's route."
I always held that if you rap-bolted a line, you could not be on the FA team.
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ec
climber
ca
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"I always held that if you rap-bolted a line, you could not be on the FA team. - k-man
I guess in the guidebook there will have to be a list of 'contributing manufacturers.'
ec
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nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
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'contributing manufacturers.'
naw.... I think the correct terminology would be "route equipped by:"
Which is the terminology I/we use when establishing new sport lines in various places. Said sport lines are rapped in and IMHO is the only sane way of equipping the routes. Chossy sandstone that cleans up nicely (once the effort is put in) isn't waiting for someone bold enough to do it ground up. To do it ground up would simply be a rather silly idea.
300th?!?!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Heck with all this ancient ground up stuff. Talk about thinking outside the box, I'm going up there to rap down and just put up a few pitches near the top. You know, well scoped, not too hard or scarey, well protected routes that are within range of a lot of folks. Kind of a community service you might say....
Rap bolting is cool, who says they have to start at the bottom? I'm the FA guy, I get to be the judge.
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adventurewagen
Trad climber
Seattle
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After reading the entire thread I'll keep it simple.
I'd love to get on the route, at least the first half but seeing as there was never and will never be an FA for the second half it looses alot of it's appeal for me. To say that I climbed Karma, Autobahn, Southern Belle, etc would have true meaning since I'd be repeating an amazing feat first and more impressively done by the FA. Climbing "Growing Up" is just a tick. No style points, no amazing feat, just training and cranking through the manufactured pre-protected route.
Not to say the route won't get done but it is nothing more than a "tick" at this point for anyone. It will never be an "ascent" for me or anyone that climbs it. Maybe the first half but never the second. The only interest it holds would be in those first 10 pitches at which point I think I'd rap because repeating the second half just holds no interest and would practically dirty the clean send you could go for on the true part of the climb.
On another note I consider myself to live in a world already "climbed out". Most every beautiful line within my ability has already been climbed so I'm one of he many climbers (a whole generation and future generations) left to sloppy seconds and for me the FA team plays a big part in the route, especially for places like the valley. If people take the true gems and rap bolt them for us then we lose yet another route that could have had more character than your average crag climb.
I dream of climbing Southern Belle though I never will, but I just can't see wasting my time on "Growing Up". I could see getting on the route and plugging it up to where the crack dies but there isn't anything pushing me to the top other than getting that "tick". So for me this whole debacle boils down to whether it's another tick for my list or an actual ascent for my personal history books.
Since I can't get the FA on the climb the best I can do is repeat the route the same way the FA party did it and then oooh and aaah over their marvelous route. Making it through run outs or over odd terrain are part of the game. I guess it's time to go rap in and check the route out. Then climb it or whatever...
Rap bolting in my mind should be left to all the crap rock you find at your local crag, which is merely training grounds for where the real stuff happens.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Tradisgood,
My vote is for the quality of the person. However, the quality of one's route can make a strong statement about the quality of the person as this thread clearly demonstrates. Carry on !!
Cracko
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
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Question: Is it OK to rap down a blank face and using a saw manufacture a hand crack if you then lead it clean/ground up?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Good points TIG. I'm not sure that the style of the FA should somehow make all other ascents invalid. There are certainly climbs put up in the 60's that I could do in better style, without damaging the rock. But that doesn't mean I disrespect those ascents, or that I would enjoy those climbs any less.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Modesto
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For me this thread is getting tired. I think folks have stated and restated their position. I for one am on the side of rap bolting half dome is not high on my integrity list, however I also understand it is just a sport, we all do it for fun and life certainly has other curves balls that will be far more important than this issue.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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"... I bet 50 postcards...
Cool! I started a new form of currency!
S.C.R.E.E.E.C.H.I.NG. halt!!!!!!!!!.. Adventurewagen considers himself living ,"... in a world already "climbed out". " Holy Sh't! Not even close! The approaches may be longer but the number of cracks, slabs, ridges, etc. left in the Sierra, Baffin, Norway, Patagonia, northern Africa. etc. will keep the next ten generations of climbers posting up new trip reports.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"On another note I consider myself to live in a world already "climbed out". Most every beautiful line within my ability has already been climbed so I'm one of he many climbers (a whole generation and future generations) left to sloppy seconds and for me the FA team plays a big part in the route, especially for places like the valley. If people take the true gems and rap bolt them for us then we lose yet another route that could have had more character than your average crag climb. "
You're in luck because the vast majority of Long Yosemite face routes were put in the traditional way.
And you're also in luck because it's very rare for any of them to get climbed. No line for you.
So it shouldn't be a problem to give this climb a miss. In fact, you should make a moral point of it.
After all, If lesser climbers are denied, by lack of boldness, all the R and X rated lines put up by the hardmen of the past., then:
Those who disapprove of rap-bolted, pre-inspected, or sieged lines should stay off them-to do otherwise is like being one of those politicians that legislates against prostitution in the daytime and bangs whores at night.
Avoid Snake Dike to begin with. It was retrobolted.
If you think "OK, I just won't clip the retro-bolts on Snake Dike, then the same option is there for you on "Growing Up"
Or just climb to the top of the Arch, A0 the bolt ladder, and free solo to the top by your own route, cause that's basically the alternative if you can't stance drill nor hook drill.
Did Doug and Shawn get less adventure because they rap bolted? Yeah! Why did they do so? Two possibilities..
1. To selfishly establish their creds with a route to the top of Half Dome.
or
2. To create a route that future climbers of that grade could enjoy.,
Since I'm mostly a route-repeating kind of guy. I appreciate #2 and think there's a place for it.
Cause after all. The guys who put up the Death Routes on Half Dome...Why did they do so? Two possibilities..
1. To have an awesome adventure with or without regard to those who follow.
2. To make a name for themselves and get respect and honor.
Is it so different?
I remember when Crest Jewel went up. (in good style I think) It was still criticized for having too many bolts. Such a fine route and one of the few faces still climbed in Yosemite of that length.
Times and opinions change. If you're one of those who used to condemn hang-dogging and now you do it all the time, maybe it's time to be quiet about your next moral judgement about others.
The second half of "Growning Up" exists in only two forms. As a death route, as a rap bolted route, or not at all. For those who lionize putting it up as a death route by somebody capable of running it out from stance to stance, I ask one question:
If I go to the Elementary School and kick the ass of all the toughest 6th graders, does that make me a brave hero?
I think there's something to be said for public service on public lands that future generations can enjoy.
Peace
Karl
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Cracko, think about this highly contrived scenario:
Reinhold Messner decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD--having never placed a bolt before, the outcome is a disaster.
Mojede decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD--having placed many bolts this way before, the outcome is a success.
Just saying that there is a fine line between the route and the climber, that's all.
edit: on the topic of quality herein.
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Owlman
Social climber
Montucky
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Choppy chop chop.
Or change the name to,
"Growing Down".
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Perhaps we could put a sign at the base of the route that says "Beware: Upper sections were Rap Bolted...Climb at Your Own Risk"
Then, we'll employ a NPS ranger to stand at the top, and make sure to point out to the tourists that the climbers topping out aren't REALLY hardcore, because the route they climbed was put up in 'bad' style.
Lastly, we'll make sure the guidebooks point it out as well, right next to the 5 Stars...
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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"Reinhold Messner decides to rap bolt a route on SFHD"
ok - that made me laugh ;-) i'm picturing him swearing profusely in german while hand drilling...
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