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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
concord, california
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Jan 22, 2008 - 06:12pm PT
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Moosie: you talk about Karma..."What we put into the world is given back to us" What about all the undeserved human suffering that exists today in 3rd world countries? How do you account for this enormous imbalance in the global Karmic budget?
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jan 22, 2008 - 06:29pm PT
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Dunno what Moosie might say, but that's where the transmigration of souls, aka reincarnation comes in. Some bad stuff happens to you out of nowhere? It's because you were bad in a prior life! Easy as pie, and about as nutritious, intellectually speaking.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Jan 22, 2008 - 06:32pm PT
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It's an illusive target for someone to use scientific evidence to argue about god. You point to a study and the typical response is that MY god doesn't behave like that. MY god would do this in that situation. That is why Dawkins carefully defines in his books the type of god he argues against.
Science doesn't have much to say about the god that doesn't interfere with our daily lives. That's not to say that god doesn't do anything to you in your afterlife. (I get frustrated these days with the abuse of guilt by Karma like tip jars with 'Good Karma' written on them. Do they really think they're selling Karma? I know it's supposed to be cute but I'm sure it's insulting to more than just myself. Anyway...)
Science can only probe certain physical parameters (although the number of things we can measure grows every day). As we discover more about our world the view of god must adapt to what we know in order for us to remain sane. How can we ignore scientific evidence that accurately predicts an outcome because someone translated what someone wrote saying that god told them that it wasn't so? Most believers will argue that it's a test to separate the true believers from the non. So be it.
The argument that an attempt to 'measure' god is in vain because god is infinite and is everything arrives at the same results, physically, as the premise that god doesn't exist. The simplest conclusion is then that god doesn't have a physically measurable presence. The soul and spirituality cannot be quantified and are therefore out of the reach of science (at the present. Who knows where fMRI and SQUID EEG's will take us? Maybe with quantum computing we will be able to reproduce the processes that go on in the mind.).
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? Philip K Dick asked an fascinating question that we may one day answer if we create intelligence. Would we then have a god hierarchy where our AI's worship their creators as we worship our own or does the greater god trump all? We will have a physical manifestation in the lives of our creations though.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 06:44pm PT
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That is why Dawkins carefully defines in his books the type of god he argues against.
What is his definition of "type of God"?
In other words "Dawkins definition of "God"?
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 06:54pm PT
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" What about all the undeserved human suffering that exists today in 3rd world countries? How do you account for this enormous imbalance in the global Karmic budget?"
Who said it was undeserved? I believe in reincarnation. We have more then one physical lifetime, but we only have one spiritual life.
I don't like the tip jars that say it is good Karma either. Its good Karma for them to give me good service. Should I wear a sign saying that? haha... Maybe we should print up a t-shirt.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 22, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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" It's because you were bad in a prior life!"
-too christian* to accept at face value. Except for the multiple lives part.
-still I think it's way more complcated than that.
*(for me at least)
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jan 22, 2008 - 08:18pm PT
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The christian version of karma is original sin, an equally elaborate guilt-tripping snow job.
"It's like those miserable Psalms — they're SO depressing. Now knock it off!" - God
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
concord, california
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Jan 22, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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so Moosie the flip side of your global re-incarnation/Karmic balance sheet is that someone like Paris Hilton OR GW Bush, both born into comfortable, affluent existences, are cashing in on good deeds they performed in a former life?
What could poor folks in 3rd world countries or in this country for that matter have possibly done in previous lives to deserve their current, desperate existence?
If there are more people on the planet today than ever before, then how does that work? Have all these people today acquired their Karma from a former 'life' as some other non-human life form?
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 22, 2008 - 09:57pm PT
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So why? it's got to be a choice of one or the other? (god v science, worded in a way to imply that science is da debil). Where does that leave people like einstien or Darwin? or other Scientists that go to church, or ministers who drive a car?
BTW, Today, the living outnumber the dead.
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John Moosie
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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LOL, okay okay, there is a lot more to it then what can be printed here. I have studied for years to understand this and still don't feel that I know that much.
First off. There are different life streams on this planet. Some started here. Some started elsewhere and ended up here. So there are different age lifestreams on this planet.
There are souls that started out as pure souls that were meant to learn how to be God. This is discribed as Adam and Eve. These souls were given a safe place and teachers. As they refused to accept life and chose to experience life as separate from God, they lost their connection with God and found themselves in the school of hard knocks. This is most of us. Some of these lifestreams learned their lessons and moved on to other realms. These are what are called ascended beings. Most have not. So they keep being sent back here until their time runs out.
Because we have dominion over this planet, we can choose to raise our consciousness or choose to lower it. Most of us chose to lower our consciousness by choosing to experience separation from God. In reality, the spirit realm, we can not truly be separate. But to allow us to experience full free choice, God allows us to experience separation. This is where suffering comes into being.
To make this short, there are also beings who started in the spiritual realm. Beings such as Angels. But some did not want to serve humans. In the spiritual realm, as here, ones choices are what decide ones experience. As these beings rebelled against God, they lost the ability to experience the spiritual realm. God did not kick them out, they kicked themselves out.
Because they had high levels of energy, they needed a place to work out their life. Earth is one such place. It wouldn't be if we raised our consciousness, but so far we haven't achieved much. Yet some have.
So these beings came to earth with high levels of energy. Many highly successful people on this planet are fallen angels. Eventually Karma will catch up with them. Because they had high attainment before they came here, they appear to be more powerful. This is illusion. We all have this power, most of us just haven't figured out how to access it.
There are two ways to leave this planet. One is to finish ones lessons and learn to live and create without harming others, this leads to ascension into the spiritual realm.
The other is to run out of time and face the final judgement. This is called the second death. This judgement is not what current Christianity teaches. What happens is that one is given a chance to turn around and change. If one does, then one can get more time on earth. Most who reach this state do not want to change and so refuse. These souls are sent to judgement where their being is purified of all that is not of God. This energy is then basically sent back into the allness of God. It loses its consciousness, but there is no suffering. The hell most people experience is right here on earth as a direct result of their Karma.
There is a whole lot more to understand, but this is a start. We are here to learn to be One with God. To BE God. If we choose separation, then we eventually end up creating suffering. All suffering is a direct result of choices we made. Not choices our creator made, except the choice to give us free will, power, and a place to learn to be More. This was God's choice. Though God in this case is not what most think of God. It is our higher self. Our higher self already resides in the spiritual realm. It chose to send a portion of itself to earth as a young soul. This is out of a desire to Be More.
The Earth is a young creation as creations go. It is meant to rise into the spiritual realm. Not be a place of suffering. Yet it is up to those who reside on it to raise their consciousness.
Jesus said that he came that we might have life and that we might have it more abundantly. He is a teacher. Most of what he has taught has been corrupted by modern Christianity. We can have an abundant life on this planet. We do not have to suffer. We can change.
Read "The Unseen Power in I AM" by Lorraine Michaels. or "The Christ is Born in You" by Kim Michaels.
Or go here.
http://www.askrealjesus.com/
If you want to learn, then you can. If you want to continue to resist, You can do that also. Both have consequences. In the material realm, both have time limits.
The final exam is on Friday.
Just kidding. :-)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 22, 2008 - 10:47pm PT
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Jaybro, here's what I know about Darwin and Einstein. Darwin started out a Christian (of course, pretty much everybody in Europe was a Christian by birth at that time), but as a result of his curious nature, scientific findings, and scientific and philosophic growth, became an atheist by his 40s until his death. As to Einstein, while the oft-cited 'God does not play dice' quote gets a lot of press, he has written several times that he does not believe in a 'personal' God, and in fact, regards this as naive. Einstein's god was essentially the personification of the laws of the universe.
If your definition of God includes a god who does nothing but create elegant universes and then leaves them to their own devices (Einstein's God, sort of), let's go over the implications:
1. Throw all of the "sacred texts" out the window (and good riddance, I say!)
2. There's absolutely no reason to pray.
3. There's no reason to do good or bad (except for humanistic reasons))
4. There's no reason to act any differently than if there was no God.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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1. Throw all of the "sacred texts" out the window (and good riddance, I say!)
Yes, let us start off by burning the constitution and then finish with burning all climbing guidebooks.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 22, 2008 - 10:57pm PT
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No Werner, we can trace the authorship and authenticy of climbing guides and the Constitution through various, independent channels. The same cannot be said of the sacred texts. In fact, scholarship has shown that all of the sacred texts had various authors and various edits through the centuries. How anyone can think that they represent the word of God is a wonder to me.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana
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Jan 22, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
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Jesus Saves!...Gretzky gets the rebound and scores!!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 11:06pm PT
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Not true.
The bonafide system disiplic succession can be traced back to the Supreme absolute truth and that truth will stand the test of time eternally.
Haphazardly and whimsically declaring you have knowledge about something you have no clue about will eventually lead to your downfall.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana
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Jan 22, 2008 - 11:10pm PT
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I can prove God doesn't exist...but I'll have to kill you to prove it!
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2008 - 11:15pm PT
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Luger
I wasn't responding to you, but since you want to play fool ....
You already failed.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 22, 2008 - 11:16pm PT
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"humanistic reasons" are everything! Why is that? Does the existence of 'god' or various other dieties affect that? at all?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 22, 2008 - 11:19pm PT
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The original version: Jesus Saves! Esposito Scores on the Rebound!!!
Shrieked, of course, by Foster Hewitt on Hockey Night in Canada. Which is not only the world's oldest sports-related television program still on the air, but the name of an alternative start to the Dawn Wall of El Capitan.
Esposito was notorious for what critics called garbage goals - rebounds, deflections, front of the net scrimmages. But he held the most goals scored in a year title for over a decade, until Gretzky topped it. Gretzy got his share of garbage goals, but also got a lot of elegant ones.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 22, 2008 - 11:24pm PT
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Jaybro, I would say that humanistic reasons are the ONLY thing we have. If you didn't see it, get last Sunday's New York Times Magazine (it's in the NY Times Sunday paper). There's a great article by Stephen (Steven?) Pinker on Morality. Best thing I have ever read on the subject and it's clear that morality is independent of any god.
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