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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:13pm PT
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Wilbeer those are my thoughts exactly. Considering all the gofundme's that have been posted to this site, and many thousands of dollars raised for people who probably don't even know the website hosts. I'm sorry to hear that supertopo was threatened and blame whoever is doing it for all of this. Curious to know who made the threat, although obviously if that info is published, the problem gets worse.
Avery, they have answered your question, having someone else's permission to post their photos isn't enough. The reason why is, someone is threatening to sue them and they are trying to protect themselves. Whatever legal theories people have, that's the bottom line.
I've gone through the 150 pictures I had posted here, removed all the memes and a few pictures of peaks I got from Facebook. It's a further blow to the forum that youtube video's can't be embedded, but I understand the problem and sympathize very much with the hosts.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:29pm PT
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I completely understand all of this. My long time climbing partner Thom ,is a now retired corporate lawyer,a real NY shark who lurks here a bit. He lives in New Mexico now.
He has related that ST probably has to adjust to these new law(s).
That said ,he also strongly recommended standing against such litigation.
He believes private entities,like forums should take notice,further infringement of liberties could follow.
These new laws establish a “bad outcome” precedence.
We know that takes money.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:36pm PT
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Where's that lawyer????
We'll take him on a climb that he'll never forget and he will mysteriously forget what he's lawyering about ..... :-)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:40pm PT
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Whoa....didn't think I had so many pics of books and mags etc. Think I'm clean now. Encourage everyone to clean up and help ST.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:40pm PT
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Wibeer, Lynne, and Don:
Thanks for your comments.
There are a lot of ideas on the table, and one that I know Chris is seriously contemplating is the possibility of separating the web side of SuperTopo, including the forum and user-contributions to route beta, topo updates, trip reports, etc, that today live on the website, from the print and PDF guidebook business. In that scenario there is the potential to convert the web site of SuperTopo into a 501c3 non-profit with a mission to serve the climbing community, and goals of providing information/education etc. Chris has been funding the forum for a long time. Converting it to a non-profit could give it a separate life that does not create on-going liability risk for the guidebook business, and might open the door to potential re-vitalization and much overdue modernization of the site functionality fueled by member-support. It is quite possible that a non-profit SuperTopo.com (or .org), could unleash a new, better, and more broadly impactful era for the site. There is a lot of potential to crowd-source content in a way that is purely focused on benefiting the climbing community that could make a future 501c3 version of SuperTopo much more impactful that it is today. A non-profit might also be able to do things like displaying hot-linked images, under the broader fair-use protection afforded a 501c3 non-profit that has an informational/education mission; whereas that same approach seems prohibitively risky for a commercial organization like today's SuperTopo LLC.
What happens down the road is unclear.
But, this experience has certainly opened the door to rethinking what the website of SuperTopo is about, and broadened the creative space for imagining what it might be in the future.
That might bear unexpected fruit from the chaos and pain we are in the midst of today.
rj
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:41pm PT
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It is a effen legal process to get that lawyer to climb ....lol
His wife is a better lawyer than him.
I like those ideas RJ,just saying, I have been operating a business since 82,avoidance of liability is part of a construction companies business plan.
And,thanks for the transparency.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:02pm PT
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That's a very interesting direction, RJ- you describe some of the benefits such a direction might have for ST, but what are the roadblocks or challenges to it?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:05pm PT
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Less than there are right now I would bet.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:17pm PT
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Where's that lawyer???? Yeah, inquiring minds...
Outing the party now would inflame, outing them later would likely be outside confidentiality and non-disparagement clauses generally signed to close these things out. So outsiders will likely never know.
Seems like climbers?
I do know they are likely reading these threads and I would say what comes around goes around. The universe won't allow you to do something this damaging to an otherwise innocent group of people and not have it eventually come back to you.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:28pm PT
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Outing could result in libel damages because such action is clearly against the ST user agreement. Notifying shareholders of a lawsuit is a legal requirement, and if I was so curious and if this notice opened a court case, I could go get the names of the parties if not more. So no, you are not correct. You don't get to maintain your privacy when you file a lawsuit in a public court, and this is a good thing.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:29pm PT
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BJ:
RJ uses the photo of Donini and his pals as being allowed
That is 100% incorrect.
Or, put more emphatically, "Dear God BJ, what the hell are you thinking?"
Please don't put those words in my mouth.
My entire point was the exact opposite.
You missed it. So please let me clarify. (And, please re-read what I wrote more carefully).
My point was that there is no reason to believe that Marlow's uploaded photo meets the SuperTopo Terms of Service simply because Marlow wrote in Donini's name as the photo credit. Marlow would need to actually have permission from the actual copyright owner to meet the Terms.
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:31pm PT
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I would describe some of these threads as oddly woven works of organic art. This draconian destruction should not happen. Emptied my photo bin earlier and contributed to the destruction of several threads. At some other sites I post on the poster often makes the statement 'If this is in copyright violation let me know and I'll take it down'.
Edited to add: This all seems backwards to me. Effectively we are being asked to prove we are innocent prior to posting a picture, rather than the 'accuser' proving guilt afterwards. It's really quite difficult to prove a negative. I suppose I should start looking to see if anyone has re-posted any of my owned content and then sue their ass; what a death spiral.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:43pm PT
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RJ, I feel for you...some people want to argue for the sake of argument. I saw that credit of photo was given, so job done. I would figure that is exactly why there is a place to credit the party OWNING the photo. Maybe I’m wrong, but that was my assumption years ago.
Peace
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:57pm PT
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Effectively we are being asked to prove we are innocent prior to posting a picture, rather than the 'accuser' proving guilt afterwards. Yes, exactly.
They obviously received an intimidating letter and have been intimidated.
Telling them to fuk off and go ahead and file the lawsuit is another possible response I’ve been party to. It’s a game I have no skin in as has been noted, but one I’ve played.
What is fair use again? Nevermind...
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 06:57pm PT
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My good friend,Thom. My photo,exclusively. Good skier,graceful climber,average kayaker and ruthless,freedom fighting lawyer.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:00pm PT
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I'm not an intellectual property attorney, but, unlike most here, I actually have one on retainer. I've also done piles of research on my own, since my company lives and dies on intellectual property.
Chris and RJ, you seriously need to get a competent attorney who understands the safe harbor statute. From everything I've seen over the years on this site, including your instructions regarding copyright EVERY time a picture is posted to this site, it is my personal (not professional, but also not ignorant or stupid) opinion that you are being jerked around by a suit and should immediately file a motion for summary judgment citing safe harbor.
ALL you should need to do in the face of any copyright violation demand is to remove THE referenced violating content. End of story. No damages, and nothing more to come of it. Any suit after that is frivolous and should get instantly dismissed with virtually no cost to you.
And ask yourselves one question: If such were not the case, then how is YouTube not already sued out of existence? Instagram? Countless others?
You have repeatedly and explicitly warned against the posting of copyrighted material, and you have actively taken down that which you were directly aware of. I believe that that is the extent of your duty to copyright law.
The level of reactivity and, dare I say it, paranoia in the current purge is unfounded, imo. And I believe that an attorney who does intellectual property law for a living will be ready to play hard-ball with whatever idiot filed suit, and that for a minimal amount of money, because simply filing for summary judgment should be all it takes to end the charade.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:09pm PT
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The universe won't allow you to do something this damaging to an otherwise innocent group of people and not have it eventually come back to you.
Oh the naivety of that sentiment. Karma, much like this "god" that people like to trot out, takes entirely too many vacations. Watching for retribution when bad things happen to good people will leave you waiting for a long, long time. Life is capricious like that.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:19pm PT
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you are being jerked around Agree.
However, it would have to be a rather pitiful lawyer that would bring forward a case that could so easily be dismissed. They are probably leveraging the Forrest case mentioned up-thread and thus would likely be granted a hearing.
But yeah - 100% agree with the rest of your post.
I would call my insurance company and they'll do whatever they see fit - right after I called the plaintiff's lawyer on the phone (thus off the record and before I had a lawyer involved...) to try and resolve the matter in the first 5 minutes - and if that went south, and it always seems to for some reason when lawyers are involved - I'd say GFY - because it's your last chance!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 07:22pm PT
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Oh the naivety of that sentiment. I've seen it roll darn near 100%. I don't wait, I go about my life, the news someday seems to make its way to me. I'm a life is fair kind of guy.
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