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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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I saw it there Ekat! And as soon as I can figure out how to move the post I’ll start a separate thread so as to cause less offense to the sensitivities herein.... 😬😉
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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i love simul climbing, done it many times. One great memory was doing tenaya in a little over an hour with my 60 year old mom. She was solid, enjoyed the experience. even led a block!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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TFPU Tamara!
We didn't use to have all you young brats around to show us up!
I've done 'simulclimbing' with no hardware in the rock, with Royal and Sacherer and Kor and Baldwin and Schmitz and Kamps and others. We called it roped third classing and knew when we were pushing our luck together. There was clearly more personal machismo involved than racing the clock ... with nobody else paying any attention to us doing it ... Royal in particular would get clearly annoyed that i would chase him up anywhere without asking for a belay. However Sacherer took it too far one day on Fairview Dome, while I still had the rope coiled over my shoulder ... how did we live so long?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I think T.Robbins post was appropriate and provided a good start to a new point of discussion. That is: without clearly defining what people are doing it's easy for climbers to have a miscommunication, never mind the general public.
She also mentioned BASE jumping. In earlier threads about BASE accidents it became clear to me that there was a big difference between a "regular" jump off El Cap (much less that could go wrong and time to address issues) vs. proximity wingsuit flying which has MUCH less room for error and it seems a much greater chance of error.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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We are all shocked and saddened by this tragedy to two of our honored best, and this discussion is appropriate introspection of the implications within our community
Tamara's dad was a pace setter and philosophical patriarch for how the sport evolved in Yosemite and his thoughts resonate throughout our community
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Tarek Milleron
climber
Berkeley
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Condolences to family and friends of Jason Wells and Tim Klein.
You can’t do what they did - over and over and over - without incredible mental fitness, focus, and vision. Let’s hope that same strength is there now for the bereaved.
Climbing well often embodies a common paradox of self-delusion: who climbs smoothly with a justifiably anxious mind? The paradox involves willfully overlooking a disconcerting objective assessment of a predicament in order to avoid worsening that predicament. This full embrace of the movement in the moment can have great utility for survival. It probably saw Jason and Tim up hundreds or thousands of pitches. It helped the passerby save that little kid hanging from the balcony in France and figures in countless WWII stories and Farragut's torpedoes. It's also pretty clear that it's no guarantee.
Whether caused by objective hazards or not, climbers rarely survive failures to mitigate unexpected slips high on easy ground (Jimmy Jewel, Rachel Farmer, Chris Chan, off the top of my head). One can choose to argue that therefore no technical terrain in climbing is easy, but that is impractical. You see big holds, the angle lessens, you motor. In many lifetimes of a lot of climbing multi-pitch routes that will save far more lives than it will end – as if it is possible to resist scratching the itch in long trained muscles and mind anyway.
Recently I met a man in rural Peru who told me in detail about a tragedy he and his family had suffered. His wife had died in childbirth after agony from a fer-de-lance bite. Her baby survived but had complications. It had been just ten days since this had happened. I can’t describe how hard this man seemed as he looked directly at me, but he sure seemed harder than any climber I’ve ever met. There was no odd lack of affect but neither were there tears. Just bare facts. He had other children to feed, his own parents to help support and no paycheck. Some of us are fortunate to have – and are therefore really obliged to use - the privilege of exploring and playing. It is only natural that such a privilege will be stretched in ways individual and unremarked upon, by exploits that expand our collective minds, and also by way of falls that shake us all.
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cornel
climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
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King Tut, you miss understood me as usual. My takeaway comment was about the overall essence of their lives. Not the fact they were playing one of the most dangerous and addictive games in climbing. Speed Wall. Maybe this is an opportunity for us to examine just how out of control it has gotten. Maybe.
Yes, They paid the ultimate penalty for a miscalculation. Too little gear placed and clipping the rope into a gear loop ( most probably). We will understand more when the investigation is complete. That aside, if we stand back for a minute and not let the sadness of this tragedy blur our vision and look at their overall lives what I see is they were both inspirational human beings not just incredible free climbers.
So as I stated earlier, Dream Big, Dig Deep, train hard, increase your knowledge base ( to prevent accidents like this one), improve your skill set( make Good placements more often).
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Codolences to family and friends, and learning to live with the aftermath forever after. I hope the various side-topics are not perceived as a disrespectful to the lives lost and the people who live on in their wake. I take it as a community grieving loss, searching for meaning, searching for answers about our own actions and near-misses and how to rationalize the intertwined nature of living life to its fullest and losing it; how to rationalize the random caprice that some of us survive our mistakes or random brushes with death, while others pay with everything.
Tamara, thank you for sharing excerpts of Basic Rockcraft. I started climbing with ropes about 25 years ago and never read it. The philosophy that pervaded my introduction to rock climbing was so different from that introspection and self-awareness... I was steeped in the outrageous and hilarious stories sprinkled in John Long's books for building anchors. I can still remember sitting in Joshua tree and laughing out loud as I read passages to my buddies. That contributed to a sort of ideal that informed much of my early climbing, and my willingness to accept more risk without a fully honest and informed sense of my own limitations or physical conditioning or time paying dues that the climbing heroes did. I don't at all blame it on that reading material, but rather that my indestructible youthful disposition gravitated toward that. It was like virtually finding my soul mates, my tribe, that I never knew existed. The crazy stories were a touch point reinforcing that I am not totally insane to want to do the lesser things I have done. If had been isolated from climbing lore, maybe the reactions of the non-climber people I was surrounded by would have toned down the degree of risk I invited on my own? Before I finished typing that sentence I thought of numerous examples of putting myself in life-threatening positions before I knew how to climb with ropes or knew anybody else who did. And I loved it. So that hypothesis is not supported.
Like moths to the flame, drawn to those flickering edges licking life and death. These days I am content far from that flame. But I don't feel the burning joy that I once did either. That's ok. There are so many types of experiences in this world that lead one to living in the moment with heightened senses and quiet mind, to feelings of exaltation, of overcoming fear, of self-satisfaction for persevering, of gratitude or relief for being done, and these are all a tiny fraction of the range of feelings that make life interesting and worth living to me. And I know so many others have experienced 100x or more what I have of these different emotions. All that said, I am content with my life so far, and I relish the memories of times I pushed my personal risk envelope, and I am sure I will do it again.
I guess I come away with no conclusions, but gratitude that I am still here and desire to share more love in the world. And compassion for those who are learning to accept loss and change and how to keep on living. My heart and mind and spirit reach out to you.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I'm confused... A post was removed maybe you are mixing things
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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We still do not know what happened. Please hold off on speculation. As someone who has been involved in a fatal accident seeing the discussion moved to Monday morning quarterbacking is tiresome and trite.
Sorry for your experience.
Nonetheless. When accidents prompt people to share, they can help people to gain a stronger insight. A lot of people posting here seem interested in climbing. Alot of people here probably climb. Of those who climb, a lot probably like to better understand the risks and stratergies used to climb.
That the discussion is happening so recently after the event is cool, because the immediacy is provoking insight. Such may not be helping loved ones, but there are also others who use this forum in part to connect with the community and grow their knowledge.
And though some may appear to just be posting to themselves, that’s cool too - the process of writing thoughts down, and publishing them, can help people order their thinking and thus sensemaking.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I understand all those things, but speculation was made about what could/should have been done by people before information was out. We still are learning more and making assumptions of what has happened, and how it could be avoided, isn't too helpful to people looking for information based on what happened. Some discussion is great, John Long threads it wonderfully, but just have awareness that family members who know nothing of climbing are browsing these threads as well.
usually a second thread, accident analysis, is a great start.
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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^^^ Yep, those are perceieved risks you’ve mentioned.
I’m hedging that folks like YOSAR, CMac, Long, Cochrane, EdH, Leb and Reilly (and sorry if I’ve missed any other names insulted not to be mentioned) would make themselves available to family and loved ones.
Censuring discussion that prompts people to explore how, when, and why would be missing opportunities that are important to many people in the community.
I’m guessing that people ask, “How could such experienced guys have an accident on such a familiar route?” Bet they used the hindsight of hundreds of ElCap ascenrts to inform 5heir stratergy and tactics that day. What was different this time is going to prompt speculation. Speculation stimulates insight. Was there something particularly different therethis time? - or was it often present, but ignored, under-appreciated, hidden etc.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I'm not censoring, I'm not an admin on this forum, I'm just trying to show a different perspective. You are welcome to consider it, or not. It's all good.
"missing opportunities that are important to many people in the community."
I think that the AAC will likely include this in the ANAM - a great resource that I use every season to assess risks. I think there is some useful information here, but it is buried in a lot of misinformation or almost correct information.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Where did you get 200m? You made it up and posted it as fact. [and then apparently edited everything about your post...
JLP- rather than get in a web slander fest, text me at 310-351-1472 or better, email me at johntpenca@gmail.com I don't answer calls from unknown numbers. I think we can sort this out on a personal level.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Earlier it was asked why not put in 2-3 solid pieces when simul-climbing, it may have been rhetorical and I don’t want to second guess anyone’s decisions but thinking about it made me realize simul-climbing is often thought of as a do not fall endeavor. Almost to the point of Free soloing. If the follower falls there’s a good chance they will pull the leader off and perhaps reel them into the last piece with a very high fall factor. So the mentality may be more thought of as like Free soloing when on easy terrain.
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CarolKlein
Ice climber
Chamonix
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I think that the AAC will likely include this in the ANAM - a great resource that I use every season to assess risks. I think there is some useful information here, but it is buried in a lot of misinformation or almost correct information.
Great points. While we can also appreciate how the immediacy of the event is a strong feedback cue for people to think about stratergy and tactics now - some of us will go climb today - even if the thread is imperfect. I’m off to climb Arete des Papillons in Cham. I will think about a bunch of this stuff. I’ll even think about that Leb stuff.
Working through all the different ideas posted at times like these is a necessary part of exploring ideas and exploiting the good ones. Good work requires lots of effort. And while some ideas may not help others, they may help the author on their own path to ordering their thoughts.
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Trump
climber
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As with most human endeavors, it seems to me like we misunderstand, and think that the question that we’re trying to answer is “how not to die climbing?” The answer to that question is trivial. I’m answering that question right now, sitting on my couch. That’s not the question we’re trying to answer.
The questions that we’re trying to answer, when we do actually go out and climb, unfortunately leads us and our friends and family to die more often than we like. Sorry.
If you don’t like it, don’t. But you might find that you prefer the alternative, even at the risk of dying.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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JLP- text me That’s funny - the ^ points to a post that was deleted, now it points to you. I’d at least delete your phone number...!
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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That’s funny - the ^ points to a post that was deleted, now it points to you. I’d at least delete your phone number...!
I don't care who has my phone or email addy's. It's public record already and been posted on this forum before with no ill effects. I just want to set things straight with you.
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cellardoor
Big Wall climber
The Sierra
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Tim and Jason’s seasonal romp up the Big Stone was something I looked forward to every season. Their presence seemed to benchmark my growth as a climber.
First, it was climbing the Salathe Wall for the first time in 2013. As a wide-eyed noob, I was in disbelief with their amazing athletic abilities, stamina, and lighted-hearted approach to climbing something so ungodly in a day.
As I progressed in climbing, I returned again, to the base of Freeblast, eager to make the first all female one day Salathe ascent. At 4:30 am, we were not the first to the base. Tim and Jason were. We didn’t even try jockey in front of them. I remembered that laughter and ease as each pitch seemed to melt away below their feet. Other teams que’d in behind us, and before their take off, we all had a dance party.
Again, in 2016, before an attempt on Freerider, we found them at the base, frothing at the bit and antsy to get a quick romp before returning to families and careers. They had hardly slept the night before, racing North from L.A.
Last fall, at another pre-dawn start to my attempt at Freerider in a day, I found them encapsulated with the same joy children have. No contest for who went first! Even though, I continued to push myself every year, I was no contender for those two. This time, I was scared of such an outing, but they assured me that there were no bad days on El Capitan. Within a few minutes of starting the route, they were both off the ground, moving fluidly through the bottom third of the wall. By the time we reached the slabs, they were nearing the monster. I was always in awe of those two.
What I fail to see at times in my own personal journey is contentment. Tim and Jason, balancing their obsession with movement and El Cap and lives nobly spent teaching, parenting, serving others, were content and full of joy on the wall. I could count on nothing less than unbridled psyche and optimism. It makes me wonder if a life always seeking and pushing breeds real happiness, or rather, a life of balance allows one to really enjoy each moment and experience as it comes.
'To live until death is to live enough,' words from Lao Tzu. Those brief memories at the base of the Salathe with those two are so very cherished. I didn’t know them at all really, but something makes me believe these two men truly lived their lives with richness.
My heart goes out to the family, friends, YOSAR, and everyone affected by the accident.
big love
Thanks Mayan.
I am glad you enjoyed it. I am Alix, by the way.
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