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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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This thread is full of laughs.
Ascribing terms like "evil" to the U.S. financial system only sounds informed to the ignorant.
There is no shortcut to obtaining the requisite knowledge to make a legitimate critique of the world of banking, credit and money.
A tiny first step would be to crawl outside the misinformation "bubble" and seek actual information, not prepackaged "opinion" masquerading as such.
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Norton
Social climber
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yes
and doing away with arrogant certainty does not diminish credibility, it enhances it
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Ascribing terms like "evil" to the U.S. financial system only sounds informed to the ignorant.
First, I didn't say "financial system." I said "financial situation."
As my posts clearly indicate, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool libertarian capitalist. Our "financial system" is not evil.
But central bankers ARE pure evil, and they have TAKEN our financial system and utterly corrupted it to their own ends, producing our current "financial situation."
It's easy to call "ignorance" if you can't parse the English language nor employ a shred of intellectual charity.
Edit: I remove the earlier Jefferson quote because I've concluded that it was incredibly widespread but ultimately apocryphal. Here's a similar one that is legitimate: "And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
And a well-done article on the start of the problem can be found here:
https://mises.org/library/central-banking-engine-corruption
It appears to me more and more that the anti-federalists were right all along, at least in their core distrust of the ever-widening vortex of federal power (and attendant corruption).
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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When did lending become "Risk Free"?
Doesn't the free market decide?
Craig, the market has decided. Non-government investors will not lend to the Greek government in its current situation. The issue isn't what to do to save the lenders. It's what, if anything, we can do to alleviate the misery awaiting more Greek citizens.
Populist demagogues can look for villains to blame, but the problem has millions of causes, including, but not limited to, every Greek who evades taxes.
And I must take issue with madbolter1's assertion that central bankers are evil. We've charged our central bankers with a partially contradictory task: We want stable currencies, but we want to minimize economic hardship. As Craig correctly points out, the economy requires periodic corrections. It's not clear to me exactly what "evil" allegedly motives central bankers' actions.
John
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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We've charged our central bankers with a partially contradictory task: We want stable currencies, but we want to minimize economic hardship.
WE have "charged" the central bankers with no such thing. WE had nothing to do with their emergence nor their activities. And if you have to have the evil of their manipulations and corruptions explained to you, then no explanation is going to suffice.
And if you think that the activities of the central banks lead to "stable currencies," well, again, there's no argument that can touch you.
Perhaps read the article I linked to.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 10, 2015 - 07:38am PT
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Holy Koran, Batman, Saudi Arabia just issued bonds for the first time since 2007!
I thought the Koran forbade charging interest?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Jul 10, 2015 - 07:39am PT
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It appears to me more and more that the anti-federalists were right all along, at least in their core distrust of the ever-widening vortex of federal power (and attendant corruption).
You are entitled to this belief, but like most belief's, it is not based upon unbiased fact. Jefferson and the Anti-Federalists were (and remain) simply wrong with regard to monetary policy.
Jefferson was opposed to the First Bank of the United States and curtailing the "States" power in the financial field. The Anti-Federalists (primarily Southerners) were less interested in trade and industry, which the Bank was designed to serve, than in agriculture. Their fear was that northern merchants would be the primary beneficiaries.
Regional paper money (delegation to the States to charter note issuing banks), not Hamilton's the Bank of the United States, and the lack of regulation lead to irresponsible and fraudulent banking practices that persisted through the late 1830s.
Nevertheless, it is not subject to reasonable dispute that the defeat of the Second Bank of the United States by Jackson and the Hard Money politicians in 1833 lead to the financial panic of 1837 and subsequent depression.
Unlike the hundreds of largely unregulated state chartered banks that sprang up after the Second Bank of the United State's demise, the Second Bank of the Unites States' notes had always been redeemed. Tens of thousands of individuals and small businessmen suffered losses when many of these banks failed.
Most American's are unaware of the repeated cycles of financial panics, recessions and depressions that persisted throughout the period from 1830 to 1908.
Citing Jefferson and the modern ilk of Anti-Federalists as authority on monetary policy is fairly naive. This "pick and choose" view of history is the definition of bias.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 10, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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Madbolter is dead on the mark about central banks. The Federal Reserve Bank is privately held and is about as "Federal" as Federal Express.
I seldom find myself in agreement with DMT, but in regards to the House of Saud, we agree completely.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 10, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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Ibn Saud, the particular friend of a certain T E Lawrence, was a stud. His progeny suffered
from that peculiar malaise common to inheritors of greatness. The newly enfranchised crew
appear to be more in tune with their great grandfather and, mark my words, will rock the casbah!
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jul 10, 2015 - 08:33am PT
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Well, I read the Vanity Fair article, that couchmaster linked.
Interesting. Not only that, but a whole load of people who've responded to the crisis as their ideology dictated, without knowing anything about the issues, are now busted as the fools they are.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 10, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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There are two narratives at war here. One represented my John and others here on ST and Wall Street Journal and Vanity Faire et al in the press. We can call it 'the world should be thankful to the savior bankers' myth. Repeated enough times some people chose to interpret reality through that rose collared lense. Then there is 'the bankers are in conspiracy to get filthy rich at the expense of anyone everyone' camp. That includes me. ha
Two interesting facts to counter that Vanity Faire 'greeks are loosers' article.
1st.According to the IMF's own internal analysis. .. though not mentioned in the press... Greece will never and can never pay off its debts if austerities are imposed. Its just math. Austerities supress growth and without growth the debts will never be payable.$250, 000 per a person I believe.
2ndly it was Goldman Sachs itself working for the then right wing government who designed the scam to hide Greeks true debt structure when applying for EURO membership. Now they sing the song condemning greek workers for their laziness.
Anyway here's another insightful article
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7769474
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2015 - 11:15am PT
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You are entitled to this belief, but like most belief's, it is not based upon unbiased fact. Jefferson and the Anti-Federalists were (and remain) simply wrong with regard to monetary policy.
You can say the words, but that doesn't make them true. You also have your belief, and, as you say, "like most beliefs, it is not based upon unbiased fact."
Such statements contribute nothing of substance to this discussion.
Regional paper money (delegation to the States to charter note issuing banks), not Hamilton's the Bank of the United States, and the lack of regulation lead to irresponsible and fraudulent banking practices that persisted through the late 1830s.
Ridiculous! I have more to say than could possibly fit in a forum thread. Wow, talk about a "biased" viewpoint, and, of course, you earlier used the phrase, "most of them southerners" in a totally pejorative sense, playing on the "bad, southern racists" meme. Just ridiculous!
Nevertheless, it is not subject to reasonable dispute that the defeat of the Second Bank of the United States by Jackson and the Hard Money politicians in 1833 lead to the financial panic of 1837 and subsequent depression.
Ahh, so you help yourself to the argument by stating at the outset that nobody can reasonably dispute with you. This is sophistry, not legitimate argumentation.
Unlike the hundreds of largely unregulated state chartered banks that sprang up after the Second Bank of the United State's demise, the Second Bank of the Unites States' notes had always been redeemed. Tens of thousands of individuals and small businessmen suffered losses when many of these banks failed.
You are conflating issues now. You are conflating regulatory policies with monetary policies. We've had crises and failures both before and after the Fed was established. You utterly fail to prove any linkages between "stability" and the existence of the Fed, which is your basic case.
Most American's are unaware of the repeated cycles of financial panics, recessions and depressions that persisted throughout the period from 1830 to 1908.
True.
But most Americans are NOT unaware of the exact same things happening throughout our own lifetimes. Are you really trying to float the nonsense that we've had "stability" and "safety" from financial disaster since the Fed came swooping in to save us?
We've had everything from S&L crisis to the debacle of 2008 (and following). The litany of failures and instability is RESOUNDING... all under the "watchful" and "benevolent" eye of the Fed!
Anybody looking to the Fed for salvation, particularly while trying to claim that "it's much better now," is simply ignorant of monetary theory... what money IS. If you think that dollars are MONEY, you reveal your utter ignorance.
Citing Jefferson and the modern ilk of Anti-Federalists as authority on monetary policy is fairly naive.
No, "naive" is looking at the ENDLESS cycles of financial crisis and reading them as "things have been so much better since the Fed came to save us." It's naive and ignorant of basic economics, by which I mean what money actually IS.
This "pick and choose" view of history is the definition of bias.
You engage in exactly what you accuse me of doing. Mine is not "bias." Mine is the simple recognition that you cannot create genuine value out of thin air, which is precisely what the Fed has been claiming it is really doing.
This video clip is somewhat "scripted," but Paul tells the truth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYSn0ip5hY
This forum subject is Greece. We there see a test-tube case of the principles Paul is talking about.
Honestly, it's already too late for us. A crisis of unprecedented magnitude WILL happen, probably in our lifetimes. You can't kick the can down the road forever. So, non-naive and intelligent people are tumbling to the fact that the Fed has helped itself, literally, to the "wealth of nations." This realization means taking steps to convert worthless dollars to tangible assets with inherent value while the vast majority don't realize that paper has NO value beyond a belief! While there is still belief, make your plans.
Nuff said.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Jul 10, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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You are conflating issues now. You are conflating regulatory policies with monetary policies. We've had crises and failures both before and after the Fed was established. You utterly fail to prove any linkages between "stability" and the existence of the Fed, which is your basic case.
You were the one who harkened back to Jefferson and his opposition to Hamilton's push for the Bank of the United States -- as some manner of critique of the Federal Reserve System and the larger concept of Central Banking.
It is unfortunate that you seem to dismiss the very real (and historically documented) financial consequences of the Anti-Federalists and their Hard Money kin.
And while there has been and always will be financial ups and downs, these pale in comparison to the turmoil that pre-dated the establishment of the Fed in 1914. And, the problems that have arisen over the last 100 years can be traced to either the lack of regulation, the failure to aggressively enforce existing regulations, or the lack of will to interfere with "market forces."
And, my God! Rand Paul? I guess it must be true. Are we next to hear from the keen minds of Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh?
Broaden your sources of information and read source material (not political screed) and we can sit down sometime and have a stimulating conversation on the subject.
But, the discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the Federal Reserve is somewhat off topic to the Greek's failure to keep their financial house in order and their currently unwillingness to come to grips with the consequences.
This realization means taking steps to convert worthless dollars to tangible assets with inherent value while the vast majority don't realize that paper has NO value beyond a belief
Most of what people today consider "Tangible Assets" do not have significantly more inherit value than a dollar bill. Gold and Silver have increasingly few industrial applications and certainly few enough to support the inflated value currently placed upon them. Like a Federal Reserve Note, they only have value because of the belief that they do and the acceptance of that belief. This is the fundamental concept of what money really is... an accepted medium of exchange.
In a real post-apocalyptic crisis, a gold ingot will be as worthless as a pile of $100 bills.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jul 10, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
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Sometimes I think the Madbolter is a Cato Institute experimental child
Remember who we are debating;
A Seventh Day Adventist.
he doesn't believe in evolution being the explanation of the billions of life forms we see. God created them, one at a time.
I would also predict he thinks that Global Climate Change is liberal hoax. Because God will always protect the chosen ones or something...
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 10, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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he doesn't believe in evolution being the explanation of the billions of life forms we see. God created them, one at a time.
seriously, he does not?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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And while there has been and always will be financial ups and downs, these pale in comparison to the turmoil that pre-dated the establishment of the Fed in 1914.
Bwhahahaha... really? You are trying to be serious rather than trolling?
I seriously have to ask, because a statement like that is so outrageous that it cannot be taken seriously. Were you alive and conscious in 2008?
And, the problems that have arisen over the last 100 years
Ah, finally, at least a tacit admission of "problems" in the last hundred years! That's getting somewhere.
can be traced to either the lack of regulation, the failure to aggressively enforce existing regulations, or the lack of will to interfere with "market forces."
Sorry, but that's only part of the picture.
And, my God! Rand Paul? I guess it must be true. Are we next to hear from the keen minds of Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh?
Excellent! More pejorative statements and guilt by association fallacies.
And the irony here is that I never mentioned Rand Paul. Yet again, your ignorance (and decided lack of a desire to actually read with comprehension) is showing. The video clip I posted was from Ron Paul, not his son. And I have nothing to do with the right wing rebumblecons like you mention. Rand Paul is a rebumblecon; his father was/is a libertarian.
Broaden your sources of information and read source material (not political screed)
"And, my God!" Are you really saying "political screed" when I have referred to no such thing?
LOL... "Broaden your sources of information and read source material" is just classic! I have a Ph.D. in analytical philosophy and have TAUGHT this stuff at the university level. What is your CV regarding this subject?
and we can sit down sometime and have a stimulating conversation on the subject.
From what I've seen so far, highly doubtful.
If you honestly think it's "naive" for anybody to decry the fed to come along and print MASSIVE quantities of worthless paper money in your name, manipulate interest rates in your name, and yet have ZERO accountability to the American people, seriously, there is no touching you.
You really evidence that you lack the most basic understanding of monetary theory, and if you think that the fed has the SLIGHTEST interest in your welfare or long-term interests, you are far beyond naive!
Why don't you actually WATCH the video I linked to, actually tumble to the NAME of the person in it, and see if Dr. Paul can inform your thinking. Within five minutes you'll see that he is not preaching some "political screed."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 10, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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And, right on schedule, there's "Dr. F" with more ad hominem attacks that are entirely irrelevant to the subject at hand.
You guys are a HOOT! LOL
"Thinking" like yours is exactly why the libs are winning and this nation is going to hell in a handbasket.
Borrow and spend! Borrow and spend! The mantra of the criminally insane when it's done at a national level.
Sadly, when the day comes that I could say "I told you so," the blood running in the streets across this nation will have me so saddened that I won't be able to say anything at all.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jul 10, 2015 - 04:17pm PT
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Hey Mad
Do you know Dave Wonderly?
He also grew up in Loma Linda as a Seventh Day Adventist, ~1974
I present the liberal perspective
Just to make sure someone gets the message out.
Like it or hate it, it's just an option.
what was the ad hominem?
I just read your website
http://www.jensenconsultations.com/
Do beliefs have any part of a Bias?
Yes, it's all about beliefs, they influence bias.
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