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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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I've been brushing twice a day for a year with my new Sonicare, with baking soda and peroxide, and my hygienist says that I'm really doing a great job. Not getting any cavities at all! Hope that counts!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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DMT,
I think you have the issue of stone variability being the problem. How or why would a manufacturer want to tackle that when there is huge liability exposure and no profit?
On the issue of concrete, there is variability. That's why there are engineers, building inspectors, and testing of the concrete pour onsite in commercial construction. One of my climbing partners was a superintendent on a multi-million dollar job. There was a huge fiasco on one of the pours. A little too much water if I recall. An entire floor of a multi-story building had to be jackhammered out and re-poured.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Can't find it now. when I was looking for a replacement bolt for the power wedge after the failures I had with them I found a chart that listed a bunch of bolts with aplications. showed which ones were recomended for static, vibration, concrete only and concrete and stone combined.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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could not have been on the red head site because it listed rawl 5 piece as good for vibration and stone.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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tradesmanclimbs,
Are these routes overhanging somewhat?
I can see what you're talking about if someone tapped the bolt while it was only hand tight.
I would think the sleeve wouldn't pop off the bolt, maybe back down toward the bottom of the cone. If the sleeve popped all the way off the back of the cone you could just pull the bolt out of the hole with your fingers, no?
Who said in an earlier post that some of their wedge bolts were hand drilled? I was thinking, if the holes were drilled a little bit oversized due to drill wobble then I could see that there might be a problem with the sleeve popping of the back of the cone.
I thought we were only suppose to blow the holes clean for wedge bolts, have I missed something?. Next thing you know people will be saying, "Best to wash the hole out with detergent". I thought this brush the hole clean stuff was for glue-in bolts only? You guys aren't going from the ground up like that are you? If so, you got bigger gonads then me by far!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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twoshoes,
Does anyone read installation instructions these days?
The holes should be thoroughly cleaned of dust and debris for all wedge anchors and sleeve-type anchors. Also drop-in anchors and self-drill anchors (which shouldn't be used anyway, as already discussed). So, yes, for any mechanical anchor. Possibly, it might not be so critical for contraction bolts like the Powers (Rawl) "Drive" (aka: split shaft / buttonheads).
Yes, ground up for FA's. Rebolting usually on rappel.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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I thought I kind of knew what I was doing, Juan.
I guess I had become too dogmatic in what I thought I knew, I'm sorry. I going to stop throwing those instruction sheets away and actually read them.
I'll try to be more responsible, I promise. The last thing I want to do is hurt someone.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Juan,
You were the one who inspired me to improve my process of removing bolts. Your idea of the Bosch tile chisel was the greatest idea ever. I have, using those as a model, been machining those and now air tools into bolt removal tools. I thanked you in 2013 on another thread and I just want to thank you again here on this thread.
Maybe if someone tries to understand the instructions and do not have a construction background as we do, they just don't understand just what they are reading.
Seeing the words "Stone-Aggregate Concrete" may not register as concrete with rocks in it. The size of the rock dependant on what the concrete is being used for. Small rocks for things like sidewalks, big rocks for things like the footings for cooling towers and skyscrapers.
I have never seen the problems that tradesman has encountered, maybe seeking advice from an instructor at a trade school or a UBC training center would be in order.
Most teachers love teaching and would be happy to help him figure out the issues.
Roger Brown
Oceano, California
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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We are putting together a list of routes in the valley with 5/16" buttonheads. I will be checking routes put up between 1988-1991 to start, and it will probably take years:-)
If you did not use them on your routes then I won't have to put those on the list.
Any information would help. Clint is sending me his list and if we can start crossing off routes it would really help.
If you used an oversized bit or reamed out the holes, please PM me and I will check those first. I found a few of those last season, and will be checking their other routes.
Those that know me, know that I don't rat anyone off about that stuff. It will be for my ears only.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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You guys aren't going from the ground up like that are you? If so, you got bigger gonads then me by far!
Yep, every placement where I can without falling.
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Juan,
May I ask what is your background, and what do you do, please?
I really thought I was doing things at least better than the average bloke out there.
You know, about twenty years ago I had the good fortune to get to spend the night at a rather well-to-do guy's house who's occupation was giving seminars on the applied science of concrete slab technologies (something along this order). I was sitting in this nice hot tub in the foothills of Mariposa and I asked him what he knew about concrete anchors. Well, this guy, Jim, even gave seminars on all kinds of concrete anchors. I can no longer remember exactly what he had degrees in, or how he had gained his expertise, but this guy very obviously new his stuff it become very evident to me fast.
You know, this was over 20 years ago, and things may have changed a little, but what I remember was he was not telling me to brush my holes out, but just blow them out sufficiently for mechanical anchors. But when he got to glue-in anchors, he got on a down right rant over this subject! Seems even the guys that he instructed on glue-in anchors couldn't even do it right after they had passed their test, gone on back to the job sites, and practiced in the field, they were having tilt-up slabs of concrete come apart at the glue-in anchors, dropping the whole slabs! What he was describing to me in the prep techniques, as far as my now fuzzy memory provides, was a process that you were describing for the way you do mechanical anchors, but with the addition of washing the hole out with detergent and water and then waiting for days until the hole could pass a test with the moisture meter. Apparently hardly anyone had enough patience, once in the field, to do all of these processes correctly, instead they would cut corners and have major failures. This just obviously drove this guy bananas!
Anyway, I'm just saying, I'm for doing a better job if I know for sure I'm suppose to. And, Juan, I'm sorry if I was a tease about brushing with my Sonacare,- that parts really true!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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Roger,
De nada. Glad to hear that my experimentation and improvisation with tools has been a benefit to others. Keep up the good work. Your role modeling and education to others is every bit as important as the grunt work of rebolting.
twoshoes,
My background is not in construction. I sit on my butt Monday thru Thursday and talk to people - a psychotherapist. Clients of all ages, with a primary focus on kids in foster care.
Have developed climbing in northern Baja for 40 years. Hundreds of routes, mostly bolted friction climbing, bolted ground up. Hand drilled until the late 80s, then Bosch Bulldog. Lots of effort in recent years toward rebolting those old buttonheads.
Self-taught for the most part. Always trying to improve techniques and keep up with innovations and specifications of mechanical anchors. Have mentored Mexican climbers and provided bolting seminars to encourage responsible bolting in Baja.
I tend to be fairly mechanical and have always enjoyed designing, inventing, improvising. Even as a teenager, I helped design a winter mountaineering tent, made the first lightweight aluminum-frame snowshoes, and sewed mountaineering clothing and gear.
Sorry if I sounded harsh about reading the installation instructions. It's not solely directed at you. It seems that climbers would probably rather be in action, out climbing, and not poring over the details of mechanical anchor specs. There is a wealth of info here on ST about bolting and rebolting. It is commendable that you are paying attention to the details.
Back to bolting: I've noticed that some manufacturers are writing that the hole should be blown clean, with no mention of brushing. Illustrations show a compressed air nozzle. Keep in mind that compressed air in the construction industry is around 100 psi. Your blow tube or blow bulb is probably less than 3 psi, thus the need for additional brushing.
These expansion anchors get their holding power from friction. Any dust or debris in the hole acts as a lubricant which decreases the friction, and consequently harms the holding power of the anchor. Think of stepping on sand lying on top of concrete or granite. It creates a slippery surface. That's my thinking about why a hole should be cleaned thoroughly...
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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Hey guys, I just modified my Sonacare toothbrush with a nylon 3/8" hole brush, cemented on with a little bit of epoxy. I can get those holes brushed out really good and in a real jiffy now!
I don't want no flack from the hole drilling police!"
I can't wait for an opportunity to use this new super-modified hole brush!
My holes are going to be squeaky tight!
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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OK, here's an idea you'll really like!
I got a bottle 10oz of compressed gas from office depot. It says "cleaning duster". It's for blowing out your computers and electronics, and what-nots.
It comes with a little tube you can plug into the spray can.
Ok, you following me?
I'm going to have the cleanest hole in the world!
I just noticed it says "flammable"!
If you decide to follow my lead, just remember, don't blow yourself up!
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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A tip from my dentist who drills daily: Use a fluoridated toothpaste or mouth rinse with that Sonicare. It helps with remineralization of the rock.
"New research indicates that topical fluoride - from toothpastes, mouth rinses, and fluoride treatments -- are as important in fighting rock decay as in strengthening developing rock."
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Every time I clip some old-ass buttonhead with a Leeper or SMC hanger I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette. On a another note, isn't there a big difference between bolt replacement and retro-bolting?
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Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
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bvb,
Hola Bob, como estas amigo?
Are you just trying to stir a hornet's nest again?
On the slim chance it's a legit question:
Re-bolting = bolt replacement (upgrading the hardware)
Retro-bolting = adding additional protection bolts to an existing route
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two-shoes
Trad climber
Auberry, CA
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bvb,
Bolt replacement is just that, replacing with modern hardware.
Retro-bolting is like taking an old route and adding bolts to it, for whatever reason. Maybe because the route was dangerous and there was ground fall potential. Maybe because the original first ascentist now wants to make a real safe sport route. Etc.
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MattF
Trad climber
Bend, Or
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RIP Scott.
Just want to say this accident/forum thread inspired me to go out and rebolt a local ultraclassic here at Smith, Child Abuse (12b), the oldest sport climb in the lower gorge.
I got new bolts from the ASCA, borrowed a drill from my buddy Kent at Metolius, and pulled all the 30-year-old 5/16" expansion bolts with those thin SMC hangars (they had 4 pieces - maybe these were before the current 5-piece design of expansion bolts?). Turns out they just had superficial rust on them and were still probably bomber, but you never know until you pull them all...
Put in new plated powers bolts, I think 3 5/8" x 1/2". Nice and fat and shiny. Should be good to go for a long time. Nice new fat chains on the anchor.
Thanks to the ASCA for the bolts and to the guys at Metolius for the gear/support.
Donating to the ASCA is awesome, but that said bolting/rebolting is not very hard. If you have ever done any construction/work with power tools its quite easy. If you have time/inclination, I strongly encourage you to find someone who has bolted and get them to teach you. With ASCA providing bolts for free, its just your time/energy and its a great way to give back to the climbing community. Go do it!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Matt,
The bolts you pulled are 3/8" diameter Rawl Powerbolts, the non-stainless version.
They do have a 5/16" diameter hex bolt in the middle.
They are the same design that people call 5-piece.
P.S. Those are not the "thin" variety of SMC hangers.
Those are the thicker stainless steel SMC hangers (they are very strong).
The thin SMC hangers are chrome-moly and tend to turn gold/rust color.
Also, the SMC logo is vertical on the chrome-moly and horizontal on the stainless.
(Stainless on the left, chrome-moly center and right. photo by Steve Grossman)
I agree, superficial rust, and I agree you often can't tell how good / what the bolt is until you pull it.
The 1/2" plated bolt you put in will also develop superficial rust.
Why didn't ASCA supply the stainless version?
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