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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:58pm PT
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Nefarius, you got my point. And yours about me being on your belay is both accurate (hopefully!) and a point well taken. When the time comes, I'll consider myself to be aid-free-solo. :)
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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Happy Hour! Damn, Ben you hit the nail right on the head! That's MY main concern too! Thanks! =)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:09pm PT
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Ben,
when it comes to the park service some of the parts are missing. That means they're not complete idiots.
They'll know the resource is wearing out.
If not from rescues caused by anchor failure then it'll likely be from the whiny mouths of the climbers themselves.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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Ben: "Somehow I doubt that because nobody on the ground that doesn't climb can see people nailing 1/2 way up El Cap and the average joe tourist doesn't care if you nail or whatever as long as you don't splat on the ground next to his kids. Nobody but climbers gives a damn about a pin scar on the side of El Cap! They're worried about finding a parking space near the cafeteria for their Cadillac!! And what time Happy Hour starts."
I suspect this is a pretty naive perspective. More likely all the sandstone areas will fall first and set the precedent for progressively tighter restrictions elsewhere eventually arriving at the Vatican of climbing with fully-formed and field-trialed protocols. Should keep the AF pretty busy for a decade or two. And who knows, maybe only folks who have passed the AMGA's 13-course Nailing Instructor cirriculum will be be allowed to carry a hammer. Well, at least someone will profit from new regulatory regimes...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
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Whats more, in Zion the routes are now showing damage from hauling that is visible from the road.
But thank you for reminding me
(about happy hour that is.)
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:21pm PT
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" Whats more, in Zion the routes are now showing damage from hauling that is visible from the road. " -
I wouldn't know, I only climb real rock. Not mud.
Oh well, these problems don't exist in the High Sierra, Sequoia or Kings Canyon, because everybody is too busy going up the same damn routes nose to ass of the party in front of them in Yosemite.
Yup, other than climbers, John Q Taxpayer does not give rats ass if you use HB nuts on the Prow or nail the f*#k out of it. He thinks we're all nuts and wants to know when his pizza is ready at the Curry Pizza deck..........and that's the truth. Only we climbers know the difference between a Big Bro and a Bong Bong!! Everybody else just wants to know how we poop up there ( better bring your poop tube dude )!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:28pm PT
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Mud huh?
Remind me; where is the climb that started this thread?
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:28pm PT
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"when it comes to the park service some of the parts are missing. That means they're not complete idiots.
They'll know the resource is wearing out.
If not from rescues caused by anchor failure then it'll likely be from the whiny mouths of the climbers themselves. " -
Maybe. Then again, when people get seriously hurt falling trying to clean aid routes that were safer and easier to climb with a couple of pins used here and there, maybe they'll just require each one of us to carry $ 1 million in accident insurance specifically for climbing in the Park as a direct result of pressure to not ever use a hammer or pins, eh?????
Won't that be ironic, eh??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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What I thought you'd gather was that the anchor failures were caused by hammer worn placements.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:31pm PT
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" Remind me; where is the climb that started this thread? " -
Out there in Mudville, where Potter got all sorts of stuff banned already. If a haul bag wears out the wall ( rather than the other way around ) it's solidified mud in my book!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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Healy is right.
Domino number one.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
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" What I thought you'd gather was that the anchor failures were caused by hammer worn placements " -
No, from the 17 or so walls I've climbed, and seeing the pressure to not use a hammer, I'll bet you we'll see anchor failures from people not having even emergency pitons, a hammer and the skill to use them - sooner or later. And blind faith in bolts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:36pm PT
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Darwinism?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:39pm PT
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Darwin's Hammer...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:41pm PT
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Wow, so even hauling is a problem now? Then the likes of speed aid-climbers like Ammon are actually showing us the way!
Uhhh... but... as we have just seen, fast climbing and perfectly clean climbing are not always compatible.
Of course, we COULD just all agree on some general ideals (which we largely have). But, the general ideals (i.e.: don't drill too much; try to climb clean as much as is reasonably possible; clean up after yourself; avoid modifying existing routes; etc.) are not enough. As this thread has righteously reminded us: "It’s time for a little honesty and self-examination, which unfortunately has to be forced on [us] by others."
Fortunately for us all, we do have the "others" in the form of the modern Valley Christians to keep us in line in every specific ACT of climbing (by force, as has been quoted), lest we should stray in any particular and thereby defile the rock (read: their own highly refined and developed sense of purity and importance).
Ammon, just admit that you were bad. Vow to never do it again. Stay off of sandstone because the likes of YOU can't help but damage it in some way (oops, too late--uhh, ok, don't touch sandstone any more after this), and thank the "others" for forcing you into some much needed honesty and self-examination. You'll feel much better once you purify your soul by confession!
Wow, it's just amazing how almost righteous I feel now, like I've joined the "others," having admonished Ammon like that. Maybe a few million more admonitions like that and I will have fully climbed out of the deep, dank hole into which my own past transgressions have sunk me.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:53pm PT
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Dream on,...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 07:59pm PT
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Yeah, you're prolly right, Ron.
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scotty vincik
climber
up north, these days
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:04pm PT
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speaking of climbing clean on routes that have gone clean, Steve, I want to climb your route just right of the Nose. How was the style of ascent. The line is natural, and surprisingly continuous. I haven't found any info on it except for some guy drinking olde english and rambling on about "honky zulu...."
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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These posts should get even livelier after we all return from happy hour.
Edit: For the record, Steve G. is not a liar. And he's not a Christian by definition although he lives his life like one.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 08:30pm PT
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297, Can I hear a 300? Ammon's one pin has turned into another wings of steel spray-a-thon.
Ammon won this debate hands down. He made his case and walked away - two days ago. In case you lost track, today is September 14, 2006.
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