Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
overwatch
climber
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
|
again no offense intended this is just my observation but that's what all the internet tough guys say
and whether you can back it up or not you probably can just saying it on the internet is the definition of an internet tough guy
And what I have learned in 30+ years in martial arts is that there is always someone better
And humility is a good thing
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 12:37pm PT
|
Yes Ron, you do not make a good impression on this forum. And I remember you talking about your mountaineering resume - far from impressive. So have you climbed ANY peaks above 5000M? If so correct me and let us know which and by which routes? Bigass mountaineering expert that hasn't climbed sh#t and a king of runout that has not gathered enough sackage to climb the B-Y in his 35 years of climbing. Not sure if this is sad or funny.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
|
As long as you are not bringing weapons to a fist fight I am up for a good ol rukus. :)
Long after being up for a rukus I will be plenty capable of dishing out the sheet. Mr. M's TR's are great and the first one I read was pretty spicy as well, he knows how to banter and write a good story.
The trash talk run was so enjoyable and good for the soul. Keep us up to date on most of the escapades.
Maybe Hawk should have went with "Fledgling" for a handle? :0
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
|
Hey V & R,
Can you two love birds take your conversation to messaging or something so everyone can put the popcorn down and get back to a conversation.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 01:04pm PT
|
Does wit/sense of humor decline for ALL men after 40?
I give it a solid 2/10
You may be right but my testosterone level certainly has, I'm only good for twice a day now.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 02:40pm PT
|
I think it's safe to say that the most active climbers, or prolific first ascensionists in this thread and the ones that climb at above moderate standards currently, or both are the most liberal and least judge mental where style is concerned.
100% agree.
I will pass own judgment and say I do not think rap bolting a route with big runouts is very good style. Friend was telling me about a sport climbing crag where he climbs. Some guy who puts up a lot of routes there worked one of his routes into submission and than chopped the 2nd bolt. So if someone wants to repeat the route but blow it going to the bolt that used to be third, he will deck. Climbing there is hard (5.12 as I remember, or at least 5.11). I would consider it terrible style.
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
|
I would say that person is a sociopath
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 03:33pm PT
|
I'm not so sure about my OP being the "rule"
maybe it's good that people have been involved in these discussions in the past and have categorized my OP (but maybe I'm just trolling here, too). But my contention was not that "best style" be a rule, but that we all recognized it as being the best style. (I know that DMT didn't think so, but he's being difficult).
My response to DMT's question:
is cleaning the living dirt out of cracks any less an impact than chipping? Drilling a bolt? If so, why?
is that "it depends," the impact that is...
I've cleaned cracks and cliffs on FAs and I consider that "less than best style"
usually when cleaning a crack there is a consideration of the extent of cleaning. If the route isn't "a keeper" then modest cleaning (enough to place pro) is usually the way to go. If the route is "primo" then the cleaning may take place after the pitch is sent.
That is the usual MO for bolts too, enough to make the FA, and then a decision after the route is done as to whether or not to go back and add bolts if needed... the FA having been done with considerably more boldness than the usual climbing team would want to commit to.
But for a totally cleaned out crack there is no doubt that the cleaning provides holds that were not available before the cleaning, much in the same way that chipping makes holds available. The only difference is that the soil in the cracks is not a permanent feature, and while the rock is also not permanent, the time scale of its impermanence is much longer (why that should matter I don't know, but it seems to).
Cracks that were completely cleaned in the 1970s and never climbed again are currently refilled with soil... and plants.
This rate of restoration is something that I think Dingus McGee was getting at on some long ago thread (which I pulled my contributions too since Dingus seemed to think they were stupid).
But since we don't know what it is we "took" when we cleaned out the cracks, we don't know the species that got gardened out, plant and animal, then we cannot properly assess the impact.
It was a dilemma I wrote about in my Alpinist piece...
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
|
Lurky, it was a response to my expanding the discussion in the DIngus McGee thread... which some responders there felt would be better if it were elsewhere (the discussion on first ascent style).
Maybe everyone else is tired of my posts, I can easily stop posting if you think that's the best course forward. I think it's interesting... you don't have to click on the thread if you are outraged, if it offends you, or if you think it's completely pointless.
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 05:04pm PT
|
I was sitting on top a run out 5.10(a Higgins route) as a teenager, belaying up my partner. A guy climbs up the standard route and asks me how we were enjoying our top-rope. I confessed to onsighting it (he was impressed), we started talking routes.
I mentioned Lava Falls and he told me about doing the FA stance only. To Jack Holmgren there was no other way to put up a FA, He sent me a photo-copy of his bolt bag contents and I was on my way to new climbs.
So I became a stance climber by accident or fate. As there seem to be enough stance leadable climbs left to explore, I will probably stick with this version of the game.
What has surprised me this last year, is how contagious this style of FA is with "newer" climbers. What could be enticing about burning calves and balancing where you you would rather hang on with both hands. On steep stuff hanging on with one hand and spending forever to drill a hole, but this just seems to add to their interest. Who knew?
Edit; Lurky, I am not calling you to do any dog sitting, I'm afraid of what you might do with my dog while I was gone.
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
|
Quite the scene this turned out to be.
Everyone knows any bouldering FA done ground up is the best style short of free solo.
No rope, gear, bolts.
The only other thing I have to add is that a bunch of u pussies can eat a rap bolted dik covered in tick marks. I say this because it seems appropriate to the theme of this thread.
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 08:13pm PT
|
Lol!
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
|
Quite a load for those pardners to swallow
|
|
ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 09:23pm PT
|
Everyone knows any bouldering FA done ground up is the best style ... Chalkless, barefoot, butt-ass naked, and no pad(s).
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 09:31pm PT
|
Ground-up, no reporting, now that is the style.
|
|
drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
|
|
|
Jun 25, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
|
I love the process of establishing a new line from the top down.
These things are not flying in at some crazy rate, I take my time, and they're pretty far from the car. I'm usually alone.
I'm pretty lucky. Like Healy said earlier, the vast majority of lines have not been climbed. Low hanging fruit, clean and juicy fruit, and the choice of how I want to eat it.
Take my chances and bite right in, hoping it's ripe and tasty, or peel it, cut it up, and choose exactly how I wanted to savor it. I've done both.
Before I started any bolting, though, I climbed lots of gear routes. I wanted to climb, not work!
I love climbing established routes and routes I've seen from the top down, routes I know go.
But there is really nothing like taking off into the unknown. It's adventure. It's exciting.
This thread has been a good discussion at times and a total sh!tshow at others but it's helped me examine what I feel is the "best" style. No conclusions reached!
But really it's helped remind me that we're all fortunate to be climbers at all, and even more fortunate to have the opportunity and drive to seek out first ascents.
As long as you're not totally botching the job/stinkin' up the joint, having fun, and coming home safe, you're style is cool with me. The "best", in fact.
|
|
RyanD
climber
Squamish
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2014 - 12:16am PT
|
Quality Jefe!
This has been quite the exercise but it was all worth it for your post & pics, cheers.
This thread has been a good discussion at times and a total sh!tshow at others but it's helped me examine what I feel is the "best" style. No conclusions reached!
But really it's helped remind me that we're all fortunate to be climbers at all, and even more fortunate to have the opportunity and drive to seek out first ascents.
As long as you're not totally botching the job/stinkin' up the joint, having fun, and coming home safe, you're style is cool with me. The "best", in fact.
My friend has a wise quote:
"If you are lucky enough to be in the mountains, you are lucky enough......"
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2014 - 01:34am PT
|
I think the whole discussion was in trouble as soon as Ed typed the title. The assumption that an ordering of styles is “obvious” has a Platonic ring to it—implying that there is at some deep intrinsic level a natural ordering that we would all discover and agree on by simply reflecting on the situations involved. In mathematics, this Platonic ideal suffered a fatal blow with the discovery of the non-Euclidean geometries. In a ironic twist of fate for Plato, these intuitive (but not logical) anomalies may turn out to be critical parts of the description of the natural world at very small and very large scales.
I believe the full-blown development of sport-climbing as a genre, like the discovery of non-Euclidean geometries, suggest that you can change the rules and still have perfectly consistent and valid results. If so, then the best we might be able to manage would be a partial ordering of styles in which we have to accept the fact that certain pairs of styles may simply not be comparable with the ordering tools we have. Or in a more general sense than comparability of pairs, it may be the case that given any two styles, there is not necessarily some third style that is better than both. If this is true, then the quest for a “best” style is futile beyond the individual level, in which a person can, of course, declare whatever ordering they wish.
I am not, with these observations, embracing any of the anarchic sentiments that have surfaced in the discussion. Climbing, whatever the genre, has to have rules or it will perish. The reason is that everything we as climbers recognize as climbing requires the voluntary rejection of possible means, and without some ability to codify what it is we are rejecting there is no recognizable activity left. Saying that the rules we have accepted are arbitrary does not mean that any arbitrary rules suffice, nor does it mean that any pair of arbitrary rules are equivalent. At the end of the day, our practices, even if they do not agree across genres, have to cluster into coherent communally-accepted restrictions of available means. The various clusters may be at odds, but some kind of internal coherence is required.
I also agree that there is an important and potentially very contentious distinction between style and eithics, with ethics, at least as far as the recent discussions go, having to do with how the practices of one genre might affect the community as a whole, most especially in terms of the use and modification of increasingly scarce resources. But that discussion, although it may refer to styles, will imply an entirely different set of ordering standards, based essentially on resource management rather than what we do or don’t do to get up our routes.
There was a time when this "old debate" made more sense, just as there was a time when "geometry" meant "Euclidean geometry." But the Eucldean world is now one of several at least logically possible ones, and our climbing world too is no longer monolithic. All the kings horses and all the kings men are not going to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, and I think the way forward lies in finding how the various genres can, each presumably making some concessions, manage to coexist. This seems better to me than setting them against each other with ordering schemes that are ill-adapted to the realities we face.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2014 - 05:09am PT
|
Ed,
Back from climbing!
Here it is:
Rest Assured,
if all of Yosemite were bolted it would not be a great Sport Area. The rock texture there does not have the features that constitutes high quality sport moves. Plus we don't do no stinkin cracks.
We have our ideal turf and you have yours and most of the time they are quite different. Rock by its very nature does crack some of the expanses of the overhanging featured faces we choose to use. WE carry only draws so we inevitably end up placing bolts near cracks. These bolts do not prevent you from using gear.
Perhaps you tradies could tell us where you think your turf ends and our begins? Please come out and do our faces using only your gear.
|
|
Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
|
|
|
Jun 26, 2014 - 06:21am PT
|
Randizzy,
for you: same as Tradsters
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!