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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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The 1966 Holubar catalog also lists the Extra Thin Chouinard Bugaboo. In both of these cases the Ski Hut and the Holubar catalog only list one Knifeblade. I wonder if this extra thin Bugaboo eventually became the second Knifeblade listing? Of course between the two catalogs the measurements listed are different.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 10:03am PT
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Fritz - Chouinard must have rounded up or generalized on his item weight listings. In the catalog the short thin Bugaboo should measure 1/8 thick x 1 1/2 length equalling 1 1/2 ounce. Fritz it is interesting that almost all of the items you measured including the Knifeblades are weighing up to 1.85 oz. I don't think Chouinard's listed item weights is a good way to determine where the Extra Thin Bugaboo fits in.
It is interesting that all three Bugaboos you list that have no markings on them are heavier than all of the rest.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 20, 2017 - 10:26am PT
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Marty: Thanks for your thoughts. I can't quite make out the thickness of the Extra-thin Bugaboo in your 1966 Holubar catalog photo. Please help me out.
I do agree that based on Chouinard's catalogs from 1968 on, that Bugaboo variations come & go.
1968-two Bugaboos
1972- six Bugaboos
1976-two Bugaboos.
Also, Farley posted this 1965 Very-thin Bugaboo blueprint photo on ST in Feb. 2016. If I'm reading it correctly, it looks like blade thickness at the eye is 7/64"
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Scrubber
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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Dec 20, 2017 - 11:17am PT
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I'm reading that as blade thickness at the eye is 1/8", and blade thickness where the taper meets the angle bend is 7/64"
Interesting tolerance allowances down on the bottom left too. +/-1/64" overall, but +/-0.008" on the blade thickness. I wouldn't have thought they could have achieved 16 thousand's tolerance on something like this.
K
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 20, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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You can get 1/8 4130 or 4340 Steel straight from a rolling mill with +- .003 to .005 without resorting to precision grinding. And .005 is what machine shops around me work to if you dont specify your own tolerances. One I go to has a sign on the wall that says so.
https://www.precisionsteel.com/spring-steel/4130-heat-treatable-strip/tolerance-data
I buy precision ground O1 thats +-.001 in thickness and -.000 to +.005 in width. I cant tell it isnt spot on with precision Starrett calipers. If I get a different result, my impulse is to check the calipers, not the steel.
(Full disclosure, I dont send them out for calibration, but they get treated pretty tenderly)
+-.008 strikes me as pretty loosely goosey. Thats near 1/128 . Lots of woodworking gets there. I thickness wood in my planner to ..005, and its just an old Delta lunchbox model.
+- 1/64 is just doing it by eye.
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hammerhead
Mountain climber
Eastsound,Wa.
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Dec 20, 2017 - 01:14pm PT
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You can see the hammer marks in some of the photos from where the blades were drawn out to an
even taper .
Most likely this would have been done at a full forging heat on a fairly small fast power hammer set up with flat dies with rounded edges.
An experienced smith could easily do this by eye in one heat to the tolerances required.
This would probably take less than a minute once the blank was at forging temperature.
It looks like any spreading of the material at the tip was ground back to size .
Were these left as forged or was there additional heat treating steps afterwards to relieve any residual stresses or to improve mechanical properties ?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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Of course to further the investigative fun, the Holubar 1966 info is opposite the 1966 Ski Hut catalog info. Good times!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 21, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
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This 17" long Sewn Nylon sling arrived this week, along with some Chouinard biners that date to about 1977. It has a slightly tattered label that reads CHOUINARD EQUIPMENT FOR ALPINISTS. The white sling is about an inch wide & a 1/4" thick or more, thicker than any nylon sling I remember.
A search of my Chouinard catalogs from 1968 to 1985 doesn't turn up anything like it. Yes! The Chouinard biner with it is one I haven't seen previously either. It does date to about 1977.
Any knowledge of the sling folks?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 21, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
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Ray- Those were sold as gear slings very early on as they were a bit more comfortable than straight tubular webbing and strong enough to be used as a runner in a pinch. The two-inch seatbelt webbing rolled gear slings were around by the time I started climbing in 1970.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 21, 2017 - 02:35pm PT
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Steve! Thanks & a Happy Solstice to you!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 21, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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Right back at you Ray!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2017 - 06:10am PT
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Fritz.......... 1969 Chouinard catalog
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 22, 2017 - 08:18am PT
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Woohoo! Thanks Marty! That nails it!
It does show up in my 68 Chouinard catalog, but without a photo & it shows in the price list of the 1970 catalog that introduces the Piolet.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 24, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
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Fritz - Many thanks! This carabiner is wonderful! For now I am listing the mystery Chouinard carabiner as "Chouinard Prototype, made sometime 1974-1976. Its shape and gate matches the 1977 Chouinard carabiner, but the mystery carabiner is stamped with only the Chouinard diamond symbol, and other carabiner side is blank.
Very nice item to receive on Christmas Eve! Once it is added to my Chouinard carabiner display board I will share a updated pic of the overall board!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2017 - 06:37am PT
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2018 - 09:12pm PT
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On the display board the 1978 Oval shown is actually the 1987 Oval. I can fix that! Anyways here is some more ways to identify the difference between the two Ovals. 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures the Oval having flat gate ends and I notice that the Chouinard stamp on the carabiner body is upside-down. Actually it is the only carabiner Chouinard produced with the stamp upside-down. Not sure if they were randomly stamping the Oval, but the photo shows that the carabiner existed.
The 1978 Chouinard catalog pictures a Oval but the hinge end of the gate is covered up. All of the other carabiner models shown in the 1987 catalog have bullet gate ends so I assume the Oval also has bullet ends. The 1987 Chouinard catalog also shows the mfg stamp is right side up.
Anybody have a 1978 Chouinard Oval they want to donate to the display? (flat gate ends), Fritz may be looking for one also!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2018 - 09:39pm PT
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Dolt gives us the answer on why Chouinard Bugaboos are so many different odd lengths. Here from the March 1960 Supplement catalog in each photos description it says "State desired blade length." and "weight about..."
I ripped apart my display board and redid the entire history of the Bugaboo. I am amazed on how many variations there are and more that are still out there. I already know that there is even another set of Bugaboos dated sometime late 1970 not represented on this display. I am not sure how the machine dies cut the Bugaboos out of the metal plate. Is the carabiner hole punched out at the same time as the shape of the Bugaboo?
I ask this because the late 1970 set has the same shape as the 1971 new two hole Bugaboo set. The hammer end is redesigned and is more curved than the past Bugaboos. But the 1970 set only has one carabiner hole. Is the holes punched out of the Bugaboo after the shape is punched? If the holes are cut out at the same time as the shape then another set of dies were created having the 1971 shape but only having one carabiner hole. If the hole is punched after the shape then a bunch of the newer 1971 Bugaboos were first made with just one hole. Adding the second hole was a secondary thought. (No pun intended!) The July 1971 Chouinard catalog advertises the new two hole Bugaboo with smoother blade taper.
Also I correct myself in a previous comment. 1/4" Bugaboos were made for the year 1966 and 1972-73.
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Happy Idiot
Trad climber
Santa Fe
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OK, so I've got this old Chouinard-stamped thingymabob. I scrolled through this whole thread. And through some other of the Taco's vintage gear threads to try to figure it out. And I looked through storrick's rappel device site too.
But I'm still stumped as to what the heck this thing is called, or its actual function? I suspect just an uber-lightweight rappel device; it's too narrow to be a biner brake, though. What's the vintage?
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SuperTopo on the Web
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3/32 x 1 3/8 - 1 1/2 oz Knifeblade 
Let us know!