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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Apr 26, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
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How many Americans would forfeit a $300K salary to advocate for social justice?
That's a very interesting question, and not a pretty one.
Perhaps, how many westeners are in a position where the risks associated with keeping a $300k job are worse than the consequences of losing it (or others?) ...
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jstan
climber
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Apr 26, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
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Everest is getting to be a more interesting mountain. I think something can be done with it. Given good weather it might take a week to clean it up. Probably take a half hour to get the trash to the nearest road terminus.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/04/285722202/nepal-cracks-down-on-messy-everest-climbers
As Everest climbing season gets started this week, Nepal is enforcing a rule for scaling the world's tallest mountain that might sound like it came from your mother: Pick up after yourself.
While it's technically not a new rule, it has rarely if ever been enforced.
Some 4,000 people have scaled Mount Everest since the 29,035-foot-high Himalayan peak was first summited in 1953 by New Zealand climber Edmund Hillary and a Nepalese Sherpa, Tenzing Norgay. Until now, most climbers, concerned with getting up and back down alive, have discarded mountains of litter everything from food wrappers to shredded tents in their tracks.
No more. Authorities in Nepal, which administers the mountain's south approaches, estimate that the average climber discards about 18 pounds of trash (minus empty oxygen bottles) along their route. And that's just what they expect them to return at base camp or else forfeit a hefty $4,000 deposit.
"We are not asking climbers to search and pick up trash left by someone else," Maddhu Sudan Burlakoti, head of the mountaineering department at the Tourism Ministry, tells The Associated Press. "We just want them to bring back what they took up."
Since the requirement is for climbers to return with the trash they brought up (or its equivalent weight), it won't do much about the garbage heaps already up there but at least it might keep the situation from getting worse.
The AP says:
"The goal is to make sure no new trash will be left on Everest, which has earned the nickname 'the world's highest garbage dump' because of the tons of crumpled food wrappers, shredded tents and spent oxygen cylinders littering the mountain."
"The government has long asked climbers to clear their trash, but there was no mechanism to check what people brought down. There also was little or no enforcement despite threats [to keep the deposit] which were rarely carried out."
Under the rule, "once [climbers] submit the rubbish to officials of the Sagarmatha Pollution Control Committee on their return to the Everest base camp, they will get a receipt. They will need to submit that to us so that they can reclaim their deposits," Madhusudan Burlakoti told BBC Nepali's Surendra Phuyal in Kathmandu.
Sagarmatha is the Nepali name for Everest, which they consider a sacred mountain.
Last week, Nepal, which garners significant revenue from climbing fees and services provided to Everest expeditions, announced that authorities plan to station security guards at the base of Everest following a high-altitude brawl last April between European climbers and their Sherpa guides. CNN says that now:
"Up to nine officers from the police and army will be sent to the mountain to try to resolve conflicts on the spot rather than having to appeal to authorities in Kathmandu.
"'The police will be the state's representative at the mountain to verify incidents that have to be reported to the authorities,' said Dipendra Poudel, a mountaineering official.
" 'It's [part of] our effort to make mountaineering respectable.' "
In 2010, a team of Sherpas climbed the mountain with the sole purpose of trying to remove the trash there.
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Dover
Trad climber
New England
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Apr 26, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
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I'd like to see the % breakdown of the $60-75K. Where's the money going?
Below is a cost breakdown from Alan Arnette. Not cheap. More details and the full article at this link: http://www.alanarnette.com/blog/2014/01/06/everest-2014-the-cost-to-climb-everest/
This is my estimated break down and there are additional costs I have not included for example travel, insurance, etc. for the support staff required by the governments.
PERSONAL TRAVEL $2,425 $6,325
Airfare $1500 to $5000 depending on class and routing and excess baggage
Transportation Kathmandu to Lukla $325 round trip per person
Hotel and food in Kathmandu $300 to $700 depending on delays
Nepal Visa $100
Immunizations $200
Getting to EBC $3,990 $4,550
Yaks to and from Base Camp $150 per yak per day carrying 120lbs, (4 yaks for 4 days minimum or $2400)
Porters to and from Base Camp $75 per porter per day carrying 60lbs (3 porters for 6 days minimum or $1350)
Tea Houses and food on trek to EBC $20 $100/person /day 7 days $140 $700
Park Fee $100/team
Climbing Fees $16,500 $21,500
Nepalese Liaison Officer $2500/team
South Base Camp Medical support $100/person
Permit $11,000 for each climber regardless of team size on South, $7300 for Westerner, $3000 for Nepali Sherpa on North
Garbage and human waste deposit $4,000/team permit (refundable but not always)
Icefall Doctors to fix route $2500/team or $500 per climber
Contribution to fixed ropes above Icefall $100/climber
Weather forecast $0 to $1000
Puja $300
EBC and High Camps $3,500 $8,800
Tents $3000 new (sleeping, cooking, toilet, storage at 4 camps for 3 people)
Cooks $5000 per cook and assistant for 6 weeks
Food and fuel $800 per person for 6 weeks
Climbing $3,440 $11,880
Oxygen $500/bottle (5 bottles) $2500
Oxygen Mask (Summit Oxygen) $440
Oxygen Regulator $500
Climbing Sherpa $5000 per Personal Sherpa with same oxygen as client
Misc $9,650 $14,400 34,400
Medical kit $1000
Sherpas, cooks tips and bonus $250 $2000 per individual depending on performance and summit
Helicopter evacuation from EBC-South $5000 $20,000 depending on start and end locations (not available on north)
Rescue Insurance: $400
Personal Gear (down suit, high altitude boots, sleeping bags, etc): $7000
Satellite phone (own) $1000 to $3000 depending on usage
gear allowance for Sherpas $1000
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 26, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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More to the point is where do the fees the gubmint collects go?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Apr 26, 2014 - 06:36pm PT
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re Tvash's point about tourism distorting the economy. Reminds me of when I went Afghanistan 10 years ago. I met an Afghan medical doctor who spoke perfect English. He was working as a driver for a foreign NGO. He got into driving for the money. Got paid $40 per month, which was more than he could make as a doctor saving people's lives, at a time when doctors were in high demand. But he could command the $40 salary because not a lot of Afghans can speak English.
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Ham and Eggs
Mountain climber
Aoraki/Mt Cook Village
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Apr 26, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
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How much are the truly top-notch Everest guides paid?
Your Sedon's, Staple's, Saunder's, Woody's and Athens's. Make between $20-$30K - food, transport, permit, oxygen and accommodation included. It's a 14-18 hour per day gig for 2-months a-fair-ways from family (if you are lucky enough to have one). And so it follows, the pay is about $25 to $38 per hour - wonder how much some of the keyboard jockeys are paid, stealing their bosses time to post here?. Generally the guide pays for their own insurance and personal calls.
Minimum skills and experience required: Solid IFMGA/UIAGM level which costs around $50K to achieve. Must have several years experience in a lead guiding capacity, the routes having been serious alpine undertakings. To be candid. Some Sherpa do, though most do not have this level of lead guiding experience. The vast majority of Sherpa and Sherpani undertaking IFMGA/UIAGM training by ENSA are provided with food, board and tuition at no cost - their western employers and the awesome foundations pay for it.
I don't like to quote Mike Tyson too often, but he makes a good point "Everybody's got plans...until they get hit." Western guides are a necessity, until the Sherpa raise their guiding skills and experience. Most joke about how much of a 'non-climb' the SW of Everest is. For many Sherpa and Sherpani supporting/guiding on the mountain, it's the hardest quasi-technical route they've worked on.
Allen's costings are pretty much spot-on. However, his assertion that spots "sell-out" months in advance is questionable; several top-tier companies have seen a drop in demand. It in part motivated the move to selling independent permits - previously, guide companies often had 'spare permit spots' to sell to non-guided punters for no-profit.
Considering the top-tier western guide companies charging around $65K. You've about 2.4 Sherpa/Sherpani for every client (the now famous shots of summit day clusters - 33-66% of the people in those photos are locals. There are around 2-3 Western guides for every 6-10 clients. Also factor that the top tier companies are well known for managing and paying for the rescue of lessor equipped climbers/companies on the mountain. And they have been cleaning-up their own rubbish, and that of others, for years. Do the math.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Apr 27, 2014 - 02:20pm PT
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I hope that the Sherpas shown picking up trash (jstan post) received $222 per pound from the government ($4000 deposit kept of the climbers do not bring 8 kilos of trash). It seems quite a bit more lucrative than fixing ropes.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Apr 27, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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All of the Himalayan guides I've met were very highly trained and rather poorly paid in comparison to their countrymen. They are not even remotely as well paid in their home countries as high altitude Sherpas are in theirs. The job takes a huge, obvious physical toll on the body. These are very talented athletes subjecting themselves to harsh conditions and significant risk. On top of all of that - they have to be good with people. Pretty heavy degree of responsibility, and a pretty damn tough job overall.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Apr 29, 2014 - 01:27am PT
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nice link stevep.
kudos to katie ives for a great article, including this quote from grayson schaffer:
"A Sherpa working above Base Camp on Everest is nearly 10 times more likely to die than a commercial fishermanthe profession the Center for Disease Control and Prevention rates as the most dangerous nonmilitary job in the USand more then three and a half times as likely to perish than an infantryman during the first four years of the Iraq war. As a dice roll for someone paying to reach the summit, the dangers of climbing can perhaps be rationalized. But as a workplace safety statistic, 1.2 percent mortality is outrageous. There's no other service industry in the world that so frequently kills and maims its workers for the benefits of paying clients."
and more importantly all while paying them a few thousand dollars for a season of work and maybe $10k in life insurance if they are one of the unlucky 1 in 100.
that anybody is defending this is abominable.
someday we [ie. the affluent world] will build parks, schools, etc. in memorial to the victims of our meaningless, ego driven, exploitative pursuits.
just as is always the case along paths of conquest it will be too little, too late.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 29, 2014 - 09:34am PT
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Great quote from an Italian climber in Everest base camp...."we made Everest a circus, this year the sherpas decided that the show will not go on."
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Apr 29, 2014 - 10:58am PT
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Let me start with the fact that I think the disaster is horrible and I feel very sad for the friends and families of those who lost their lives. There is no doubt whatsoever that many of the Sherpa engage in an extremely dangerous career and their hard work and often heroism is often overlooked and taken for granted. I think that is all a given, even if not understood by most of the world and the press.
That being said, mountaineering has always been about (among other things) freedom. People should be "free" to climb Everest or other peaks, and from what I have read (which means the information is obviously not first hand), many Sherpa were not truly "free" to stay and continue to assist and guide Everest this year on the South side. Similarly, many of the guiding companies were not "free" to continue. I get the feeling that many Sherpa, and many guiding companies, were coerced or threatened so that they could not continue to climb. I understand and accept that any or all of the Sherpa should be free to decide the route was too dangerous and not continue. The same is the case for any western guide (many of whom are also paid little to guide - particularly the junior guides on the mountain who sometimes net nothing). However, can you imagine a western guide from Himex threatening people from IMG that they will be harmed if they don't leave because Russell Brice decided a few years ago that Everest was too dangerous to climb that year? Of course not.
While only time will tell if the Sherpa revolt (perhaps a poor choice of words as no disrespect is meant to the hard working Sherpa) will have negative or positive impact on the Sherpa, it does not seem that the situation was handled properly. The avalanche did not increase or decrease the risk of Everest. It was only indicative of a risk which was always there. I do not believe the South side was shut down due to that danger. If they Sherpa want more money, they should ask for it. They should ask for it from the guiding companies. They should ask for it from the government, perhaps getting assistance from the companies they work for. If the Sherpa want to start their own guiding companies, they should do so. However, being a business owner myself and having seen many people think they can also be business owners (often unsuccessful most of the time), I can tell you that it is not so easy, nor as profitable as people often think. Many people think they want to be business owners, but shy away because there is tremendous financial risk in doing so. With risk, there is reward, but there can also be failure.
If the Sherpa want more life or health insurance (both of which I believe are valid concerns), they should negotiate for same with their employers, or use some of their own funds to purchase it. They should be talking dollars and cents. How much insurance do they want? What does it cost? What are ways to pay for it? People collectively pay for ropes to fix the mountain - why not a collective fee to pay extra insurance for the icefall doctors? If the Sherpa want more funds from the government, at what cost? Would they want the government to take more control of the business? My guess is that they would not.
Along with freedom comes responsibility for all. The guiding companies need to be responsible, but also need to have freedom to act as they truly deem appropriate. The Sherpa deserve and require the same. Neither western guides nor Sherpa truly receive the respect to which they deserve amongst the public, but I believe they both generally get the respect to which they deserve from their clients. That should be enough (I certainly deal with the same in my profession). I am not sure the action taken by the Sherpa in the aftermath of this tragic event will lead to more respect or better results in the long term.
People can say that Everest has become a circus, but so what? If you don't like that circus, don't join it. People have been pulling "stunts" in the mountains for ever. People not qualified have been climbing for ever. Some of the most respected climbers ever started as guided clients (think Brad Washburn) - so what's inherently wrong with that? Again, the Sherpa who tragically died this year did not die because they were working for unqualified clients. The pictures of the Lhotse face a few years ago may have looked ridiculous, but I am not aware of any Sherpa who died as a result. While you can argue that money has not helped the Sherpa people as a whole (perhaps changing a society for the negative), the plethora of arguably unqualified guided clients (from west and east alike) has brought largely financial benefit to the Sherpa, as without them, there would be fewer jobs. If these clients create too much risk for the Sherpa, they should refuse the work - but this should be decided upfront, just as it is with the guiding companies.
Finally, it is unclear to me whether the main complaint is that conditions are unsafe and the Sherpa want to create a more safe working environment, or whether they simply want more financial benefit for taking on the risk. This needs to be clarified because the solution differs dramatically depending on what the concern is.
Ok, that's my long 2 cents.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Apr 29, 2014 - 11:33am PT
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mountaineering has always been about (among other things) freedom
Along with freedom comes responsibility for all.
People can say that Everest has become a circus, but so what?
the Sherpa who tragically died this year did not die because they were working for unqualified clients.
the plethora of arguably unqualified guided clients (from west and east alike) has brought largely financial benefit to the Sherpa
Trying to process this......
TY
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 29, 2014 - 11:49am PT
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Tony, don't even try, you'll just get a headache while lowering yerself.
Besides, I'm beginning to think illiteracy is a communicable disease.
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Apr 29, 2014 - 12:04pm PT
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Bruce, thanks for clarifying. My point is that the risk of an avalanche is independent of the quality of the guided clients. As you point out, the more you take that risk, the more dangerous the job. In many cases, the more dangerous the job, the higher the pay. However, while crab fisherman in the North Atlantic are paid pretty well for the extremely high risk job, they are not compensated as highly as many doctors, lawyers and bankers who do not take much risk. I assume the icefall doctors are compensated more generously than a cook in basecamp. Is there a price I would agree to be paid to be an icefall doctor (assuming I had the ability - which I surely do not)? Not a chance. Others obviously feel differently or there would be no icefall doctors. But what is the right price and who should pay for it? If it costs too much, there will not be the demand (in the example of the crab fisherman, if they were paid millions of dollars for the risk, crab would cost more than people would be willing to pay and nobody would want crab). If they are not paid enough, nobody qualified or sane would take the job. What is the breakeven point for the Sherpa on risk v. reward? What about for the guided clients? This should be the debate IF this is all about paying the Sherpa more money. Then again, I thought the real issue being discussed in terms of compensation was dealing with insurance to take care of injured Sherpa and families (in the case of injury and death). Perhaps the solution involves setting up funds for this, or teaching more about sound investment, etc.
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John M
climber
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Apr 29, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
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Finally, it is unclear to me whether the main complaint is that conditions are unsafe and the Sherpa want to create a more safe working environment, or whether they simply want more financial benefit for taking on the risk. This needs to be clarified because the solution differs dramatically depending on what the concern is.
From the list I read on Alan Arnette's site, they wanted better benefits, such as better health and life insurance. Right now, if someone is injured, they lose that seasons pay, plus they have little to no health insurance. Also, the life insurance is so low that their families go from middle to high income families down to poverty levels.
Plus..
They wanted more control over when they climb. They don't get paid if they don't climb, so they can be pushed to climb even when they don't feel that it is safe. Whereas the guiding companies get their money up front. They are paid whether the season is cancelled or not. Though if they cancel too much, they could lose business. The same would be true of sherpas. If they complain its too dangerous too often, someone else could take their place.
Thats the way that I understand it.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 29, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
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It (the avalanche danger) was only indicative of a risk which was always there This is true.
And this is entirely the point: the occasional extreme event has not been properly accounted for the risk to the Sherpa and their families.
It does however beg the question: does global warming increase the frequency of such events?
An implicit question remains unanswered as far as I know. How aware have the Sherpa been of the true lifetime risk?
We keep saying Sherpa as if they are magically better informed and less concerned about risk than the rest of us and implicitly the climbers from the outside world have less responsibility for their safety.
Calling them Ice Doctors is somewhat misleading. It implies a high skill set. While this is true of the Ice Doctors the dead Sherpa were serving as porters, humping loads for the Ice Doctors already at the higher camp and for the clients soon to follow, they could have been rookies.
Alan Arnette:
However, there were over 100 Sherpas from multiple teams ferrying loads to Camp 1 and Camp 2. Some had already completed their job and were returning to Everest Base Camp, some were still climbing higher.
When the outside world sends men and women into a similar risk environment we call it war.
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michael feldman
Mountain climber
millburn, nj
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Apr 29, 2014 - 03:19pm PT
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I would be shocked if the Sherpa were not aware of the risk. My guess is that those least truly aware of the risk are the uninformed, unqualified clients (not that all clients fit that mold). In any event, I am pretty sure that if this is a concern, the Sherpa can inform each other as well as anyone else.
If higher pay is what they want, they should demand it from their employers. I also understand that many of the guiding companies pay the Sherpa regardless of success. There is simply a success bonus. Same applies to Western guides, and most other jobs outside of the mountains. You really can't change that.
I am all for better and higher life and health/disability insurance. They should bargain for it. Of course, there is a cost. When I obtained life insurance which covered climbing, it tripled the cost (and it excludes 8000 meter peaks). Perhaps the Sherpa should ask for the same coverage as the guiding companies provide the Western guides. I am curious what benefits the Sherpa owned companies provide to their own Sherpa guides. Anyone know if it is better than the "Western" guiding companies? And why are Asian guiding companies also known as "Western"?
If they are not skilled enough, they should not be there. Again, however, the deaths had nothing to do with the skill of the Sherpa. Paying them more will also not add to their skill, it will simply make them wealthier. If the complaint is that they are not skilled enough, perhaps more money should go into the training of Sherpa. I know institutes have been set up for this, and some companies have very high standards. I am not sure of how this all works out, however, and I would only be speculating if I opined on it.
Finally, if this is akin to war (which it is not), I would point out that most soldiers are very poorly compensated for the great risk they undertake for their countries. Soldiers also do not have the opportunity to: (1) say no; (2) demand higher pay; (3) demand better benefits; (4) refuse something risky; or (5) make many decisions at all. Their pay is generally lower than the average pay (at least in the US), not many times higher. Let's not confuse soldiers fighting in war with Sherpa taking highly paid jobs (albeit, highly paid only compared to other people in Nepal, and not compared to some 1st world countries) which entail tremendous risk.
Perhaps the problem (apart from more uncertain weather conditions due to climate change) is that the cost to climb Everest as a guided client (as opposed to people who climb unguided - which is great) should be even higher. The range of prices for guiding climbing is certain starting to show a wider range depending on the level of service provided. Perhaps Sherpa can do the same.
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granite_girl
Trad climber
Oakland
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Apr 29, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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Not that my opinion matters, but would it be possible to mitigate some of the objective hazards of Everest? At least along the tourist route?
Whatever the motivations of the clients, and whether you agree with them or not, for the Sherpas, the Khumbu Icefall is a job site. Why not treat it as such? I don't know how easy it would have been to knock off that serac prior to the climbing season, but I'm pretty sure it would have been possible. And there are probably other places on Everest where it would be reasonable to do avalanche control.
We do this on local ski slopes all the time. I think it's only the mystique of Everest that prevents us from using the same techniques on that mountain.
We can argue all we want about the most ethical way to interact with the Himalayas, but people will always want to get to the top of Everest. And they do want some risk in the journey (e.g. no cable cars). However, there is no reason to subject the workers (Sherpas, Western mountain guides, porters, etc), to unnecessary risk that doesn't even change the physical experience for the client. Climbing through the Khumbu Icefall is just as hard, or easy, whether there's a giant deadly serac hanging over it or not.
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