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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Rick thank you for the question which is a heavy one on this thread. I like the way this talk is getting more grounded and less focused on capitalism. Rick, I know of the posters on this thread, it's likely only Todd has climbed in more areas on the Rez than you.
Just to make it clear, I fully support authorized, paid climbing on parts of the Navajo Nation if that is what the Navajo Nation has in mind. Perhaps it could be a tiny way for the tribe to make a small amount of money. Either way, it is great to see the climbing leaders of these communities sharing this wonderful sport with their younger brothers and sisters.
Largo, I will be sharing this discussion with various brothers in the next few moons, don't worry, this thread isn't likely to pass soon.
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John M
climber
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Interesting thread.
Todd, thanks for the pictures and the stories. I would buy a book about your time living and climbing on the reservation and other areas of the desert. what an interesting and beautiful land.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Just to make it clear, I fully support authorized, paid climbing on parts of the Navajo Nation if that is what the Navajo Nation has in mind.
Anyone know of any other areas where a pay to climb system has been set up? I'm wondering what kind of liability that would open the tribe up to. Seems like once you start taking money things are going to get complicated.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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rich-
In many ways the rez could be the US version of Europe as standard state law is limited there and the finger pointing "ownership" issues are moot. There is really no one to sue. The majority of US lawyers cannot even practice on the rez! I have seen beautiful areas that would lend itself to via ferrata, mountain biking, hang gliding, BASE, climbing, canyoneering, and the standard non lethal nature hiking. Money might make the motivation and organization appear but as you have said the aspect of death might thwart the whole idea.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Hey Reeotch:
Anyone know of any other areas where a pay to climb system has been set up?
Mt Everest?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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There was a pay to climb place in AZ, the name escapes me. I'm pretty sure it was on tribal land, though not the Navajo res.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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You're probably thinking of Seneca Falls. Money was for a permit that everyone had to have, not just climbers as far as I know, so not really much different than a Tonto NF permit, or such.
There is Crawdad Canyon in Utah where you pay to climb, but that was private land, not rez. Haven't been there in years, but you could take a dip in the pool after if you wanted.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
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Seneca Falls...couldn't remember the name to save my life. They paid a couple to clean and bolt their cliffs, then charged admission. Very bolted, very safe like an beautiful outdoor climbing gym. Hey they saw a way to make money off their cliffs, can't imagine it was a great deal of money though. Anyway as of 2005 you can't climb there anymore so it must not have worked out for them.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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David, yes that is the Confluence.
Whatever happened to Seneca Falls? I remember many years ago scouting out the potential, before the trip paid those climbers to bolt up the cracks. That place still open?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Here is an example of what I would consider sustainable tourism which allows people from all over the world to experience the marvels around Page, AZ while providing some income for the Navajo Nation. Incidentally, Antelope Canyon is considered one of the most photogenic and unique slot canyons on the planet. The "4x4" trucks seem fairly packed much of the year.
In the end, my opinion is just that...
http://www.antelopecanyon.com
Antelope Canyon Tours is a customer service oriented business that specializing in slot canyon tours around Page, Arizona / Lake Powell Area. One of our primary offerings is our guest seeing Antelope Canyon through the eyes of a Native American / Navajo. Antelope Canyon Tours is a Navajo owned business providing Navajo / Native American guides from Page, Arizona.
The mysterious and haunting beauty of Antelope Canyon (also known as "Corkscrew Canyon", one of the few slot canyons in the area) awaits the adventurous traveler who seeks to discover one of the most spectacular -- yet little known attractions of the Lake Powell area. A tour to this awe-inspiring sculpture set in stone is a must for amateur and professional photographers alike. Come see nature's surprising masterpiece of color.
Travel in a 4-wheel drive vehicle that is both rugged and safe yet comfortable... Look for the monster trucks!
You enjoy a scenic ride to the canyon where the guide explains geology, cultural history and modern issues. Upon arrival at the site you will step into the desert and enter an amazing fantasy world in stone. For photographers, with proper exposures, you can bring out the best in your own creativity. For non-photographers there is a magical new world to explore and immerse yourself in. The colors are rich and deep in the morning and afternoon, and the famous light beams occur mid-day during the April to September.
Return visitors should note that the road to the Canyon has been gated by the Navajo Nation; only authorized tour guides are permitted to enter. Antelope Canyon Tours is in good standing with the Navajo Nation.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Yep, I've paid to take photos in Antelope Canyon. It would be great if nobody knew about it, but they take truckloads of photographers in several times each day.
There was a flash flood that killed a number of hikers in the lower part of the canyon about 12 years ago. Now they've installed several metal ladders so you can escape in the event of a flash flood. They are also super heads up over any precip happening in the upstream part of the watershed.
Slap on a 24mm lens, set the shutter to 30 seconds, and any idiot can take perfectly beautiful photographs. Of course you aren't shooting anything new..
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Lovely photograph, Base.
I believe the Antelope Canyon hiking tour now costs around $25-30 per person (1/2 day).
I know of fishing, hunting guides in northern AZ that earn $300-500 per day for their expertise. I would hope that any guided climber on the Rez is paying as much or more (per person), with the proceeds going primarily to the local chapter house. What's a Yosemite guide service charge per day for a multi-pitch climb?
What's a BASE jump worth? $75? 125?
The Antelope Canyon flood was horrific. Don't recall hearing about any law suits, though days are different now.
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/14/us/12-hikers-are-swept-away-by-flash-flood-in-a-canyon.html
12 Hikers Are Swept Away By Flash Flood in a Canyon
Published: August 14, 1997
A canyon renown for its narrow, twisting limestone walls became a trap for 12 hikers on Tuesday when a flash flood filled it with a wall of water 11 feet high.
The guide for several of the hikers survived, battered and his clothes ripped off by the force of the water, and the body of one woman was found yesterday. The other 10 are missing and presumed dead.
The storm came without warning. A cloudburst 15 miles away sent heavy runoff down a normally dry wash in Antelope Canyon toward the unsuspecting sightseers. ''Rain had not fallen where they were hiking,'' said Benson Nez, a ranger on the Navajo reservation which the canyon runs through.
In recent years, the colorful, intricately carved walls of pure sandstone found in Antelope Canyon have drawn photographers from throughout the world.
On Tuesday, the corkscrewing cliff walls funneled the water into an 11-foot-high wall of water racing toward Lake Powell, six miles away.
The survivor, Pancho Quintane, a 28-year-old guide from TrekAmerica, based in Los Angeles, had grabbed a ledge, the authorities said. He was airlifted to Tate Hopsital here and later released.
Searchers recovered the body of a woman whose identity has not been released.
The remaining 10 hikers are presumed dead, said Chief Deputy Sam Whitted of the Coconino County Sheriff's Department. Officials have postponed the search until daylight, when teams will resume their efforts to find the missing hikers, aided by divers, search dogs and a national Guard helicopter.
On their way back from their hike, a party of six, led by Mr. Quintane, had almost reached safety when the water hit about 4:10 P.M.
A Page resident, Ted Candelaria, noticed an empty van parked near the trail head on his way home from work at the nearby Navajo Generating Station.
''I knew someone was in trouble,'' he said. ''With all that dark, dark water rushing down there.''
As the water began subsiding, he said, he waded down the canyon about a mile and found Mr. Quintane being helped by a state trooper. ''He was all beat up,'' Mr. Candelaria said. ''He had rolled around a while until he hit a ledge and then pulled himself up. All of his clothes were gone; the water was that strong. It had taken his shoes, his shorts, his shirt, everything. He was just stark naked -- bruised and battered. It was horrific, just horrifying to see what it did to him.''
Sheriff's deputies said the hikers included two from the United states, seven from France, one from Britain and one from Switzerland.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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To go back to the OP and the idea of ethical journalism.....There's not much I like to read in the mags because real life climbing is so much better but I do notice the little things in the articles that interest me. One miscue that I didn't like because it was in an article about the possibility of someone soloing El Cap; To wit and article entitled "Yosemite Roulette" by Dougald McDonald had the sentence "Many of the most famous free soloists Derek Hersey, Dan Osman, Michael Reardon died performing one climbing stunt or another." Reardon didn't die free soloing nor from 'one climbing stunt or another" and it bothered me that, although a small mistake, made me wonder about the facts in the rest of the article. True, Reardon was climbing that day and was swept off the rocks on the hike out but the article suggest that he died while in the act of some stunt.
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George R
climber
The Gray Area
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"Irresponsible Journalism" - Isn't that redundant ?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Just a few weeks prior to that flash flood in Antelope, I was there working on a film about canyoneering for the Outdoor Life Network (I was the host of the show). Though at the time I didn't know a whole hell of a lot about canyoneering (my experiences at the time mostly from descending Zion walls), I knew it was a dangerous time--monsoon season in the southwest, y'know--and was pretty hesitant at times. I think my cameraman thought I was being a wuss. We later did Behunin in Zion also for the film--he wanted to do a harder, more committing canyon but I said no way. In the next couple years I got into canyonneering big time and realised that doing any of the canyons during that season was pretty nuts.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Feb 10, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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Here is a brief article which may help some of us to understand a bit of the Navajo culture:
http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070520/news_1n20seeking.html
Navajo man struggles to find place in changing world
By Susan White
STAFF WRITER
May 20, 2007
Donvan Staley steered the blue Jeep confidently into the brown water that was flowing across the canyon floor, between the steep red cliffs of Canyon de Chelly National Monument in northeastern Arizona.
He grew up here, he said as he twisted the wheel to avoid deep spots and rocks. So did his father, his grandfather and his great-grandfather.
“This is my church, you could say, my office, my home,” the 32-year-old Navajo guide said.
Canyon de Chelly (pronounced d-shay) is on the 4 million-acre Navajo Reservation near the town of Chinle. Like just about everything in American life, it is in transition. Navajo families who once lived on the peaceful preserve are moving to more hospitable parts of the reservation. The canyon has no running water or electricity, and the most basic necessities must be brought in on four-wheel-drive vehicles. During our tour, Staley stopped twice to help extract vehicles that were stuck in the sand.
Like other Navajo we met that day, Staley is trying to figure out his place in this changing world. His first child is due in July, and he's already thinking about how to prepare him or her for the future.
He is sure one thing will remain constant: his family's connection to the canyon, which has been inhabited for 1,500 years.
Although the canyon is on Navajo land, it has been operated since 1931 by the National Park Service. Visitors come to see the remains of ancient dwellings tucked precariously onto ledges of the cliffs and to experience, if only for a few hours, the tranquillity of the Navajo treasure. Outsiders can enter only under the supervision of a park ranger or with a licensed guide.
“When I was a boy, I swam here,” Staley said as the Jeep lurched through the water. He also herded sheep in the canyon and, on horseback, kept watch over the family's free-ranging livestock.
He pointed to the dark streaks that drip down the canyon walls.
“It's manganese,” he said. “My grandmother used to say it looks like Mother Earth's hair.”
People no longer live in the canyon during the winter, he said, because the temperature can drop to 15 degrees below zero and the children have to get to school. Traditionally they return in the summer, living in hogans, which are round homes made of logs and clay.
But fewer return each year.
Staley estimates that no more than 50 people spend their summers in the valley these days. His family visits its ancestral land – near an overlook called Sliding House – mostly on weekends, maybe to plant some corn or spend some quiet time “bringing back the balance” to their lives.
Staley earns his living in the winter as a substitute teacher. In the summer he helps run the family guide business, De Chelly Tours, which was started by his great-grandfather.
The guide work gives him the greatest pleasure. It's not easy to make ends meet, he said, because more people are offering tours. Even so, he would like his child to become a guide and preserve the traditions of the canyon. He also hopes the child will learn to speak fluent Navajo, as his wife does, rather than his own mix of English and Navajo, which he jokingly calls “Navalish.”
Staley is practical, however. The world is changing, and he wants to prepare his child for what comes next.
“Education is the way to a better life,” he said. “Education first, the canyon second.”
Staley stopped the Jeep in front of Fortress Rock to share the story his grandparents told him.
In 1864, the Navajo surrendered to Kit Carson at this site after a siege of almost six months. Nine thousand people were marched 300 miles to a reservation at Fort Sumner, N.M., where they were held until 1868. Only 3,000 made their way home.
I asked Staley if telling that story made him feel bitter.
He paused for a minute. “You feel it once in a while.”
Then he shook his head and kept driving.
“If you're Navajo, you don't dwell on the past – you go forward. You don't mention the person who has passed you to go forward. If you dwell in the past, it affects your mind, so you move forward.”
It's better to stay positive and focus on the beauty around you, he said.
The beauty of the water flowing over the red sand. The beauty of the pictographs left on the cliffs by other people who have called the canyon home.
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b.b.
Trad climber
ojai, CA
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Feb 12, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
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Here is an article I wrote for Climbing mag a few years back... and the second page...
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Alexander Pina
Social climber
Arizona
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Feb 12, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
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Climbing on the rez..the weather is getting nicer n nicer...! March is looking promissing for rez adventure time on the rock. Some may not agree but whos up for a remarkable experience! And there is so much info out about the rez...especially about climbing...just look the research is there. So irresposible journalism? Not in my opinion
Climbing is here so meet some rez folk an go for it....you will be all good..also if .you want to find out our culture?..come visit...open door policy at my house! ....
Dirt Bags Welcome!
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