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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
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The most important leap forward for early humans occurred when they learned to cook meat,
True.
Quiz: Name one traditional vegan culture in the world.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 16, 2016 - 08:11pm PT
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Because the puppy isn't filled with bacon.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jun 21, 2016 - 11:08am PT
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We ate practically nothing but moose, lake trout, salmon and garden veggies for the first ten years in Atlin, and still do a lot of that. Couldn't have a much healthier diet. The moose population is still great. No antibiotics, none of the complex environmental downsides of livestock production.
I always enjoyed the hunt, moving quietly through the autumn woods with the scent of leaves going back to the soil and the low golden light. Always regretted the kill , but was careful to place the shot and didn't shoot unless it was a quick kill. Apologized to the moose, as if that did any good. And the packing out was murderous sometimes if I was on foot. But what a great feeling to cut and wrap and freeze all that good meat! A family production line. Food for a year.
Every once in a while the sentience of even the slightest animals astonishes me all over again, and I understand why people become vegetarian in sympathy. It's increasingly easy with age to become all anthropomorphic and not want to kill anything at all. But I can't break the meat habit and don't really want to. So I remind myself that life eats life - it's the way the world works, the way we evolved, the way darn near everything evolved. A rationale.
And I still stomp on carpenter ants.
Too bad most of humanity doesn't have the environment and the resources to eat this way. Humanity did once, way back, but we've overpopulated and overtechnologized and overcapitalized, if there is such a word.
Had a rare beefsteak last night. Strangely, it was damn near tasteless. Maybe the cow was at a gluten-free feedlot, or fed with IVs.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 21, 2016 - 11:45am PT
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The claim/idea....
Prohibiting animal factories - while perhaps holding a lottery for meat eating (open range, traditional hunting, farming) at 1% curent levels is a great way for H. sapiens groups (eg, nations one by one) to show they have advanced yet another step in (high) civilization.
Gives new meaning to the One Per cent in sociopolitics, eh?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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The truth about meat? It's yummy!
My organic grass-fed beef and lamb comes from 3 miles away. Yummmm!
Local bone broths and stocks, too.
Rogue Creamery butter a big leap 14 miles away is the best ever!
As a therapeutic diet for circumscribed period vegan diet can be a great reset. For some conditions I won't take some patients unless they will do it for 6 months or so.
As a long-term diet veganism seems to a religion make. The Bible is The China Study - a textbook example of taking sound science and spinning a lie.
I'll take this path, thank you very much - The Island Where People Forget To Die
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Not sure what you're trying to say there Mark. You link proves long healthy life from low/no animal product diets combined with healthy social life.
Thanks very much!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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It's not a vegan diet.
Just because eating a standard American diet (SAD) is really BAD and eating way less meat is way gooder doesn't mean eating no meat is best.
That's the point.
Locker, my wife makes this amazing iron skillet cornbread and then she mixes it up in oven skillet bacon pieces and maple syrup! Oh my god that's good! I'd be 400 pounds if I ate that Southern all the time, but once in a while is heaven!
If you're coming by Ashland sometime come on by and we'll do that up!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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So what, Mark? The epi studies show the lower the animal products the better. The SDA in the blue zone are mostly vegan. Just because some of these blue zone diets have small amounts of animal products, does not justify your high beef/lamb/cream diet.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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How many cows go into a 12 oz package of beef jerky...?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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The consumption of protein made our ancestors brains larger which gave rise to human self loathing.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Contractor, true.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sometimes I wonder about Supertopo. And then I think, no, it's not supertopo, it's the world.
Consider Mark Force's post, above, in which he provides a link to an NYT story about an island in the Aegean where people live extraordinarily long lives.
There were brief mentions in the piece about diet, including the fact that these long-lived islanders ate relatively little meat.
And what happens? Immediately trumpets blared about the relative worth of meat in the human diet. "Meat bad!" "Meat good!" blah blah vomit infinitum.
Didn't anybody realize that there were other things common to the life of these islanders that were different from your life in LA or New York?
Like the fact, repeated several times in the piece, that the biggest difference between life on Ikaria and on other islands nearby, and between Ikaria and virtually everywhere else in the world, was that islanders paid no attention to clocks?
Wake the f*#k up. (Or, perhaps more important, Go back to sleep for a couple more hours).
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Brief mentions of diet? Did you read the article Ghost? Much was discussed about social structure but I would hardly call the diet discussion insignificant.
Since Mark posted the link to support his high beef/lamb/cream diet, forgive us if we focus on the diet.
All the blue zones have healthy social structures as well as low animal product consumption.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Ghost- your critical analysis of criticisms of the original criteria exemplifies the that a forum revolves around critique.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Brief mentions of diet? Did you read the article Ghost?
Of course I did. It's just that I don't view every story/article/thought about life through the lens of "Meat is horrible". There are other things in the universe than the consumption of the flesh of dead animals that impact the quality and length of human life.
Maybe you should go back and re-read -- with the anti-meat blinders off.
I'm neither a meat advocate nor a meat hater. But I do try to keep my brain engaged when I read.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Monolith, You really are a puritanical evangelical aren't you!
You make assumptions - my diet is plant-based Mediterranean pattern.
Stop calling diets almost vegan as a proof for a vegan diet. If there is any animal fat or protein in the diet it is not vegan!!!!
You don't have to eat meat - you just need some animal fat and protein in the diet. So, you can be a vegetarian - BIG difference between that and vegan.
We are omnivores!!!
Because Ikarians only eat a little meat and they're so healthy doesn't mean none is better - that's the lie that the China Study purports. They may be on to something.
So I'll mimic their pattern. Cuz I want to look and feel like this when I'm old!
Sometimes, I find that I've eaten a whole day and it's been vegan....
...so the next day a make up for it and have my cornbread-bacon-maple syrup heaven!
Full disclosure: That's actually a rather rare treat. Mimosa with prosecco are more common - gotta work on my Mediterranean diet!
Can't wait to eat Sicilian prosciutto and drink Sicilian wine in good company, conversation and laughs!
Ghost has it right - there's more to the equation than only the diet!
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Mei
Trad climber
mxi2000.net
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There are other things than the quality and length of our own individual human life. The film (also on Netflix) touched upon that aspect from a certain angle.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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^^^^Indeed!!!!
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