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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jul 30, 2013 - 02:55am PT
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Right on! After all of the BS that's gone on here it's good to see the actual players step up and work things out. Such a refreshing break from all the crap of late.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 30, 2013 - 09:55am PT
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Funny how things work out. Nice to see the FA getting the respect his work deserves. Cool to see an honest error being respectfully corrected. Good stuff all around. This is the right way to take care of the thing.
Grats to all
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 30, 2013 - 10:14am PT
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Agreed. It sounds like both parties were mature.
A small victory against the onslaught of bolts.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 30, 2013 - 11:21am PT
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Time for a group hug and a round of kumbaya
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 30, 2013 - 11:28am PT
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This ascent places Thom among the big boys of the era and he deserves much notoriety and mad respect.
Why is Thom a "big boy"--because he rapped down and placed fixed gear that he thought was appropriate to protect his (extensively top-roped) ascent, but then complains when someone else did the same thing?
Answer this question: what gear did he place for his ascent, in addition to the bolts and pins (and how many pins)? Did it include aid gear (and/or hammered nuts)? This route was done at about the same time as the classic Boulder Canyon route "Hot Flyer," where the first ascentionist placed fixed copperheads to protect his ascent (someone nearly died trying to repeat the route when a fixed head blew--all of this account is from http://www.mountainproject.com/v/hot-flyer/105754036);. The Hot Flyer FA'er was at least reasonable enough to agree that "establishing" routes with rap placed junk was probably not a style that was going to stand the test of time, and agreed to the route's retrobolting. Perhaps he's the "big boy."
Somehow in Thom's relatively long account of the climb (including blind-folded belayers, name-dropping, etc.), he seems to have avoided shedding much light on what gear was placed, other than noting that gear was placed on rappel.
Will Thom (and/or Chris) be butt hurt when future would-be climbers rap down and place whatever gear they'd like to protect their ascent, presumably including pitons (and perhaps other fixed gear)? Should they remove it when they're finished?
Chris--did you pull any pitons, and are you going to replace them?
Hope both Chris and Thom feel like real "big boys" when some kid tries to repeat the route thinking that it has been climbed like 99.9% of routes are (without aid gear placed on rappel, and then removed) and breaks his legs or worse. I'd suggest removing all bolts and anchors--otherwise you've got a textbook example of an "attractive nuisance" out there.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2013 - 11:39am PT
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If there is gear in this climb that you can actually fall on through the hard sections, if the runouts are indeed 2 full number grades below the expected hard climbing, then most climbers in this area aren't going to care about the difference between clipping a draw or sticking in a piece of gear. Pretty 101. Great. Can't wait to get on this route. What you describe sounds possibly on par with other well traveled trad classics in the area such as Evictor, Scary Canary and about a dozen other "scary" mid 12 trad routes in Eldo you have to wait in line for these days. Wow, I'm a rad trad climber, look at my RP's and Aliens. Woo hoo. Oh wait, maybe could you please point me to something that's actually hard?
HOWEVER - if this route has its boldness artificially manufactured per the detailed instructions of someone 100's of miles away and 25 years after TRing the Holy Living Sh#t out of it, pre-placing aid gear, then pinkpointing it - expecting others to follow that as if preserves some fantasy of ground up trad ethic (wtf??!!) - even if it means a better, more skilled, more bold climber could very well end up in the hospital while attempting it as such - I would say grow a spine, Chris, and do what's right - what active and local climbers originally and obviously thought was right - what you know is right - and leave the f'ing bolts in. I find such routes to be the ultimate expression of selfishness and cowardice.
Hoping for the former here.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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It should be clear at this point that climbing in 80s means boosting the ego of the developer, not opening the route for people. And I'm not simply referring to bolts. Rap placed pins then headpointing 3/4s of the route and demanding it stay that way for eternity is really an amazing demonstration of selfishness.
If trads see this as a banner for their craft, it is a really sad example.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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Strawman: of course sport climbing rap bolts. Trad ethics say meet the rock on its own terms, drill on lead, and look at the size of deez nuts!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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Not to add fuel to the fire but calling this a bold trad route is a bunch of bull. The route use sport climbing tactics and was beaten into submission on a top rope, gear was pre-placed and then who know how many pins were removed after the ascent?
Comparing this to the bold routes done in the 70's and 80's from the ground up is bull and does a disservice to those who did them.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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I did not intend to retro-bolt an existing trad route.
Kind of a non-sequitur, because there's nothing "trad" about this a rap-bolted/rap-pinned, TR-rehearsed, pink-point. Nothing.
Blahblah and JLP are spot-on.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:16pm PT
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Headpointing 3/4s of the route and demanding it stay that is really pretty amazing. I don't think Thom even "headpointed" the route, although people can argue about the semantics of climbing jargon.
I think "headpointing" refers to leading (including "pinkpointing" after extensive TR) traditional routes, that is, routes established ground up. Archangel was not a traditional route by any definition I've ever heard, not even close.
Edit--I missed a couple of the above posts when I wrote this, so my post is redundant. I think the people who are actually paying attention to specifically what happened here instead of spouting general platitudes are pretty much on the same page.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
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Good to hear you are going to work things out, and I have confidence it will work out well.
I think that Chris is showing some serious spine, and doing what's right, by realizing that he made a mistake and doing the best he can to fix the situation. I hope that this route turns out to be a fun and memorable climb that can be led with some degree of safety. I look forward to trying it.
It's really odd to hear climbers slander the style that Thom climbed this. At the time this was put up, many climbers were just trying to put up routes in as good of a style as they could, and that meant with as few bolts as possible. For some routes it was fine, and others maybe not. He was doing the best as he could at the time, and put some serious time into this route. In reading his MP comments it sounds like it was very important to him, and he poured some serious heart and soul into this route.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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It's really odd to hear climbers slander the style that Thom climbed this. I really don't think anyone is slandering his style, just his fantasy of boldness and accomplishment, especially relative to his peers of the time. I see the comments more as highlighting reality.
The worst - leaving the anchor ~13+ away from where he lowered off is a JOKE, and sounds like it's the primary reason the bolts went in.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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There were many 5.12's established in the late 70's and early 80's from the ground up placing gear as you go. Thom ascent used sport climbing tactics and somewhat devious in the sense that no one knew how the route was done till now.
If he really wanted to leave a legacy he would have done the route in better style and not leave as a r/x route for some poor soul to come along and die trying to repeat in good style.
Funny that Thom got all the benefits of sport climbing style ascent but left the route as a trad route for some else to repeat. Total bull in my book.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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Let's face it folks, the TR/rap-nailed but still runout/ruthless wiring/eventual headpoint thing has simply not caught on, for somewhat valid reasons. Runouts manufactured from above violate two basic and somewhat opposing principles: the traditional, ground-up one of meeting the rock on it's own terms and rising to the challenges presented; and the sport-climbing principle that routes which are first approached from the safety of a toprope should present no more than trivial dangers when climbed from the ground. Both approaches give us climbs which can satisfy, in very different ways.
As it stood, Archangel was neither. Poorly protected head point-style climbs with sparse fixed protection reflect the confusion and experimentation of the era, and as such constitute legitimate 'museum pieces', but I am not convinced that this bastard child of the early sport/trad age needs to remain ever thus. People learn. The sport evolves. While I respect the great effort applied and emotional connection that TB has to this route, I question whether this special connection is likely to be duplicated by anyone other than the first ascentionist.
If the climb is to have fixed pro, placed from above, the gear should be bomber, and appear with reasonable frequency. Otherwise it should remain a toprope or sketchy lead. The middle ground satisfies almost no one, is logically incoherent, and ensures that the route is unlikely to be appreciated in any style.
Yes, CW should have gotten in touch with TB- obviously it wasn't that difficult to do so. Perhaps as well, TB might gracefully acknowledge that he has wrung as much as he ever will from this chunk of stone, albeit in a style arising from unique circumstances which are unlikely to be repeated (unclimbed line, undiscovered wall, etc.) , and request that either the route be restored to a more-or-less pristine condition or allow it to be climbed in a manner reflecting standards that history has settled upon as making some kind of sense. Yes, he climbed it first. Yes, we have a tradition of respecting the FAist's vision. But visions can change- numerous examples exist. And the 1980's vision comes off as a bit confused in this instance.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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whatever you think of the style it was done in, he still had to climb the run outs, right?
as far as being concerned with his 'legacy' why don't we just stay concerned with our own without passing judgement on someone who may or may not be concerned with how future generations of climbers would view his route? It might be your most important consideration but why would that be true for everyone? climbing new routes, and the motivation for doing so, is deeply personal...some aren't looking to create gyms for the masses.
I'm glad the two concerned parties have worked it out. can't help but wonder how this might have gone if permission had been sought rather than forgiveness,
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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he still had to climb the run outs, right? A key component of a trad run-out is facing the unknown. He did not do this. His run-outs were rehearsed and manufactured.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
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His run-outs were rehearsed and manufactured.
So are my dumps.
Dude did what he did.. said what he did. Did not claim it was the B-Y.
Good enough for me.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:01pm PT
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"whatever you think of the style it was done in, he still had to climb the run outs, right?"
Runouts aren't so runout after a 100 top rope ascents.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Jul 30, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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Yeah. Homey should've called first and presented his case. Then the rest of us could go back to our cubicles and continue reading about royal babies or whatever, and a lot of this hot air could've been avoided. And maybe they would have worked out a reasonable deal. Now it's gonna have three rap bolts instead of two? just what the world needs, another Paris Girl.
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