Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
|
Anders, that argument works for everyone!
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
|
Rule #1 in conflict is you must employ whatever tools are being used by your opponent. What armed security person would be willing to go up against a bushmaster with only a handgun? So the NRA's proposal can only result in school security personnel being armed with something like bushmasters and walking around in kevlar suits. We may expect the suggestion that only one guard is needed in a school will be immediately faulted. It is a low ball proposal that will be found inadequate immediately as a school with only one guard is sued.
Furthermore the proposal assumes at the outset that armed guards will solve the problem. That shooters will be dissuaded from choosing schools as the place to act out their terminal dramas. If it does not, we will have kids in the middle of firefights involving military hardware. That sounds more like a problem than a solution.
The following a blog by C.E. Gant an MD in Integrative and Functional Medicine
School Violence
The following are reports of teens committing acts of school violence during an 18 year period from 1988-2006 (footnote 3), beginning only one year after the first SSRI antidepressant was approved for the U.S. market for adult use only. More than half of the teens committing these acts were taking SSRI antidepressants.........
http://cegant.com/commentary/school-shootings-and-psychiatric-drugs
Whatever else we do, we need seriously to investigate to see what portion of the problem is pharmacological in origin.
|
|
monolith
climber
albany,ca
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
|
Tell that to Columbine who had an armed deputy sherriff who shot at the perps but did not prevent a massacre.
|
|
coppertone
Trad climber
CT
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
|
Join us and help us move the conversation and action forward. We can no longer sit idly by and allow this to happen to our children and all of the other innocent victims of gun violence. Take an active part. Call your local, state and federal representatives and let them know how you feel. We in Newtown are going to do everything we can to make meaningful changes in our country. We need everyones help and participation.
https://www.facebook.com/NewtownUnited
There will be a website very soon. If this country can't move forward toward meaningful change after this and the horrible gun violence since in Webster NY, Pensylvania and many other places then I fear that nothing will ever get done and we will continue down the road to NRA Armagedon where your doctor will be strapped in the delivery room when he is delivering your baby.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
|
I'm a little surprised that those who have seen combat would glorify guns or violence. Most combat vets I know abhor war. Most of the WWII and Korean War vets who raised my contemporaries didn't even want to talk about it.
I think the NRA, whose "solution" to the problem of mass school shooting is, indeed stupid, blew it here. TO get to a real solution, start with reality. As I understand it, there are at least 200,000,000 operable firearms in private hands in this country. The issue isn't what would happen if we removed most of them, because that begs the questions of how we accomplish this. A more realistic question is: what will happen in both the short- and long-run if we enacted legislation, consistent with the Second Amendment, restricting their use? What would happen if we asked the same question, but included the possibility of amending the Second Amendment?
My own belief is that the history of Prohibition should make us wary of trying to rely on legislation restricting firearms ownership as a means of deterring gun violence. Certainly the violence in Mexico -- a country that restricts legal firearms ownership much more severely than does the United States -- doesn't give me cause for hope.
If I want to be even more dismal, I'm not sure I trust the bureaucrats who make governmental decisions to make good choices over who is and isn't fit to possess firearms.
My own bottom line remains that the sorts of large-scale restrictions on gun ownership proposed by anti-gun "nuts" would be, at best, ineffective and, at worst, counterproductive. We do need to strengthen the aid we give to those suffering from mental illness, and we also need to close loopholes that allow people to obtain firearms legally without some reasonable waiting period to allow for a background check.
Beyond that, we're fooling ourselves, and we're ignoring the reality that overall murder rates have declined precipitously in the last 20 years, at least. While it might help if we didn't spend weeks of headlines keeping these sorts of events front-and-center, I know of no empirical evidence that shows that it will deter others who want notoriety, and it won't happen anyway, given the First Amendment and the desire of the press to make money by selling the sensational.
Sorry, but I don't see a "big fix" here. We aren't going to become Europe, with much smaller amounts of firearms in private hands, by simple legislation. This county made that decision more that two centuries ago. We need to spend more time dealing with problems we can solve.
John
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
|
+100 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
jstan,
the motto at the Gunsite Training Facility is "any gun will do if YOU will do".
Your assessment is too simplistic and does not account for advantages like surveillance, surprise, superior knowledge of environment, etc.
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.
|
|
monolith
climber
albany,ca
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:11pm PT
|
Rongo, Connecticut has a VERY LIMITED assault weapon ban. The Bushmaster he used is legal in Connecticut, but not in CA.
No limit on magazine capacity.
Not much of a ban.
Top weapon with the large clip is legal in Connecticut, bottom one is not, because copies of banned weapons are legal.
You call that a ban?
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
|
Perhaps whenever this thread spirals out of control you could bring us all back to earth with photos of various damsels in hair regalia?
Isn't that what the Boobs thread was for? And how well did that work????
Buuut.... my young nephew posted an image on his FB that would have done the Boobs thread proud just a few minutes ago, so maybe he is just a normal young man after all...
I did click through and the site suggested some other things I might be interested in. And one was a "PhotoShop Fail" page. I thought this one might go well calming down the testosterone-infused posting here.
hee hee heee - sorry, couldn't help myself.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
|
There ARE some LEOs that don't run away crying about how the bad guy has a better gun.
Ron that may well be. But I also don't see our marines in fire fights using single shot hand guns.
Edit:
Ron, my point is the discussion the two of us are having will become a hot topic at the first fire fight. And this thread shows pretty clearly how it will go.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
|
Kali cops don't walk around with ARs, but after North Hollywood (where LEOs returned fire with handguns against body armored drugged maniacs with full auto AKs and got the job DONE!) you can bet they carry them in their kit.
So what is your point jstan?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
|
I didn't quite catch that jghedge, how many gun related deaths by your count in the UK?
I think you need to repeat it.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
|
WARNING, SEVERE HYPOCRASY ALERT!
this just in from kennyt on the BD thread;
Perhaps we have over regulated ourselves to death
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
|
Why are there any gun deaths in the UK, jghedge?
Thirty-five dead proves gun control failed, yet you stubbornly advocate for it.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
|
35 gun related deaths in the UK last year proves you wrong, obviously
What is the greatest proportion of firearms in private hands in the UK ever, Joe? You miss my point completely, because you fail to state how we reduce the 200,000,000+ firearms in private hands. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms has no equivalent in the United Kingdom, nor in most of Europe. They never had the sorts of numbers of privately-owned firearms we do. About the only exception of which I'm aware is Switzerland which, to my recollection, has very high individual gun possession and very low firearms violence. In any case, we're starting in 21st Century America, not from a clean slate.
Your attempt at the anti-slavery analogy is even more strained and inappropriate. The 13th Amendment did not result in more slavery. In contrast, there is rather scant evidence that enactment of gun restriction legislation within the contemporary United States -- or any other society with a similar proliferation of gun ownership -- would result in lower gun violence. Indeed, the Mexican experience suggests otherwise.
John
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
|
Working within constitutional, legal, and financial constraints, a reasonable solution might be something like the following:
1. Legalize marijuana and any similar 'soft' drugs, tax the crap out of it and the fools who use it, use that money for worthwhile purposes. May increase public respect for laws having some rational basis, plus undercuts gangs and others, reduces "crime" and prison costs.
2. Federal prohibition on importing and owning automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons, and similar. Exceptions based on proven need. Buy back/permanent disabling program for existing weapons, with amnesty period.
3. Federal regulations controlling all manufacture, purchase, sale, and ownership of non-prohibited weapons, e.g. rifles, shotguns, handguns. Setting clear requirements, e.g. that all weapons be registered, safely stored (locks), purchasers go through waiting periods and background checks, and no consumer-consumer ('gun show') sales. Regulations clear, but largely state-administered, with BATF oversight to ensure fair play.
4. Immediate induction into the military of all those who want to own automatic, semi-automatic and assault weapons. Either that, or send them to re-education camps. (OK, I'm joking about this one. Sort of.)
5. Appropriate transitional measures, e.g. ensuring that the new laws are immediately challenged in the courts, and upheld by the supreme court, so finally putting to rest the more extreme fantasies about the second amendment. Even the most constitution-distorting version of "states' rights" and "strict constructionism" will allow reasonable regulation of firearms.
The result would be like the health care reforms that were upheld last summer. It'd take 5 - 10 years to fully implement, is really only a partial solution, but at least represents some progress.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
|
Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating
That must explain why our government hasn't rolled armor on civilians in the 2 decades since Waco,..
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
|
jghedge writes:
"And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once"
You're suggesting the government conduct a shooting war vs it's own citizenry, and then you wonder why nobody is hopping aboard any of your asinine ideas.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
|
Thanks for injecting some thought into the debate, Anders. I wonder, though, what the effect would be of the bans and controls you propose. I doubt that criminals who use illegal firearms would turn theirs in, but I think this proposal would likely lower the incidence of the sorts of attacks perpetrated at Sandy Hook, because the potential mass killers would need to work harder to get their weapons. The unanswered question is whether the full-time violent (as opposed to the one-time violent) would be more formidable with a less well-armed civilian population.
John
|
|
fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
|
And of course it will take a while to get rid of all of them, but a lot of idiots like yourself will die in firefights trying to hold onto them, so we'll be ridding society of 2 problems at once
Although all it will really take is one group of armed insurrectionists, holed up in their compound, vs. one Apache helicopter, broadcast on the news, and the whole delusional, adolescent Gun Nut movement will start rapidly disintegrating
Hedge, not to be rude but you seem to be the only one here who's obsessed with firearms and violence. Penises it would seem too.
And there you go again with what seem like disturbing wishes of fictional armed insurrectionists being slaughtered on TV. Are you on meds?
What you should try to realize, is that 99.999999% of legal gun owners/enthusiasts out there are responsible, sane, and not the least bit thinking about killing or harming anyone. The statistics prove that out. I know that's hard for you to accept.
Laws are at best a blunt instrument for herding the willing sheep. They have never, and will never, change the evil intent of men.
|
|
kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
|
|
|
Dec 26, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
|
Joker Vilian,I'm afraid I can just see the difference between regulating assault rifles as compared to a business.Thanks'for your opinion. Oh don't worry the sores should clearup in a few days. EDIT: Correct spelling is Hypocrisy
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!