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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Why the boring arguments about sport v. trad? No one cares anymore.
Per the original question, I agree with Coz and don't think 5.11 climbers are rare. In my pre-child and career climbing days I could onsight hard .10/easy .11 most places and in different styles. The first time I went to the valley I did a bunch of hard .10s, face and crack.
Among the committed climbers I knew in Flagstaff and Tucson I was below average.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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By the way the hooks were for free climbing pro and failled when tested taking me with them.
That's what I thought, hooks don't look strong enough to use for pro. So a leader fall on the Bachar Yerian means .... ?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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2000' feet up and 80 feet away from the last good pro you placed. Name the pitch.
I'd guestimate 1/4-1/2 of Rifle, for example, is occupied by people with a shitload of trad experience. Hong, Kennedy, Thesenga, various locals of the same vein most wouldn't recognize. If you are looking for difficult high quality routes with natural pro, you will eventually you run out of routes - to the point where, at the higher grades, they don't even exist.
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steve shea
climber
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Dru Couloir direct, Colton/MacKintyre Grands Jorasses, Jackson/Shea NF Droites, West Face Menlungtse, NF Pyramid ...more, lots more, all trad, all well over 2000' out, all involving big runout pitches. Unless you think only cragging counts. Run out of routes? You need to get out more. In 40+ yrs of climbing all over I did not even scratch the surface. Nice post Philo. Now I'm done
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Yea but you think taking huge whips on micro gear makes your penis bigger and you vote against healthcare......
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Dosen't the fifi get stuck on the bolt? that was as much a gear climb as a bolted climb. I tagged the drill up when the gear fizzeled out..
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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I just learned on another thread, you put a cord through the hole in the top of the fifi hook and that's how you disengage it from above. I never knew what those holes were for. As I recall, someone said this was developed for ice climbing, but I'm not sure the details.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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JLP how about The Diagonal Will to name just one route. Or pick any number of pitches in Death Valley on the Forrest Walker for another. When we nearly freed the FW (50 to 60 moves of aid left) in the early 80s it was significant. By the way there is only one bolt on that entire route. It is on the last pitch and was quite unfortunately placed on repel and consequently is in a horrible location where clipping it is problematic. But it was the only truly substantial piece of pro in the previous 1000'. Of course it is now over 30 years old so your average bad ass hang doggin' take & hang climber wouldn't touch the route with a 2000' foot stick clip. It's not your down stream weenie roast.
I agree with Steve Shea, you need to get out more, the air conditioned air of the sport gym is making your mind moldy.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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It seems there are lots of subjects in this thread. I might be
able to throw out a few thoughts...
I have seen some of today's climbers, very gym-trained and strong,
master 5.12 and 5.13 sport climbs, such as the Web, in Eldorado,
and not be able to do Supremacy Crack. That might just be a matter
of their focus, that they have developed their skills around
overhanging face climbs and have little experience at, say,
hand cracks.
When in the mid 1970s, a new generation started to appear, individuals
such as Bachar and Kauk and David Breashears, and some strong
people in other areas, such as the Gunks, they seemed so intent
on pushing hard that they got real good at real scary climbs, such
as Perilous Journey, 5.11 totally unprotected. Charlie Fowler,
for example, part of that new crowd, soloed the DNB and the Diamond.
We can imagine those climbs, and certainly the Casual Route on the
Diamond isn't such a bad solo perhaps, but boldness... that was
how they began to surge ahead in general. I believe their increased
ability, strengthwise and techniquewise, allowed them to pull off
certain climbs. I was terrified to think
about some of their climbs, although on a good day I could out-boulder
many of those top climbers then. So perhaps it was not so much a
physical transcendence as a mental one.
In my own experience with 5.11, it was more or less the top of the
grade of my day, the 1960s. If it didn't push one to the limit
it wasn't 5.11. If something was at your limit, you couldn't simply
waltz up it without it messing up your hair, so to speak.
Then as I grew in experience and became more able to
do 5.11 I led probably hundreds of them, not all in perfect style,
but many. If I got even slightly out of shape, though, I couldn't do
that, not come close. I could always return to some climb, though,
with which I was familiar, and, out of shape, manage a halfway
decent way up it. I loved to repeat favorite climbs, because I
could still feel like a climber and enjoy being on beautiful rock
with a friend. I was more frequently off form than
on, or just not as active and fit. I was often defeated if there
was a runout or danger factor, though on occasion I did a few
scary ones. I preferred to make things safe. I have
always liked to have a couple of good points of protection nearby
(as TM Herbert would say, at my nose). Some of the new guys were
unbelievably strong, and yet they didn't do gymnastics as did I.
It was a mystery to me how they got so strong. Again, I believe
in was in part a mental transcendence that gave them some of that
ferocity and power. As I got older, and heavier, I found I could still
do hard climbs by virtue of years of experience, and that I had
technique I had not lost... Such technique, not unlike karate,
becomes instilled in one, almost automatic, and I found I could
do hard things when my strength lessened radically. In England,
for example, on rainy frigid day, I impressed Charlie Fowler when
in a coat I led the Left Wall of Cenotaph in strong style.
Had the weather been better, I might have backed off. Who knows?
Up until 1984 I could still do the Right Side of the Red Wall in
a slow, static way, with a controlled reach to the knob above.
Now I can only look at that knob.
On occasion I found moves on climbs that were like boulder routes
I had mastered. Thus I could push those climbs. I did a number of
5.12 routes, at the limit of my ability, during a period of time
when I was nowhere as fit and strong as I was when I was younger
and when 5.11 was my limit. Clearly I too benefitted from that
consciousness that the new generation seemed to acquire. It touched
me as well, though not with the same strength it infused the
young.
I don't know if I'm like anyone else, but I have been different from
one day to the next. A certain day I was a 5.10 climber, if I
could keep it all together. Another day I was a 5.11 climber and
could do most any 5.11 put before me, crack, offwidth, or otherwise.
Then there were times I could only climb if I had very good
protection. On another occasion I didn't seem to need so much
protection. I see in my own experience I wide range of moods and
dramatic variations in ability depending on all sorts of things.
I have watched the various generations, from Henry Barber to Lynn
Hill, and they are unbelievably talented individuals. Henry,
for example, was just incredibly fit and had a great mind for it.
He was not an exceptional physical athlete, though. I could do
all sorts of boulder moves that were akin to gymnastics, and he
would simply look and laugh. But on a bold lead anywhere, in his
day, he was close to if not the best. People have picked on Lynn
for years for being so featherweight light, for her tiny hands that
fit into cracks we can only get our knuckles half into, etc. But
what she has is pure god-given ability and so much technique you
can't measure it. She has had everything one can have, pretty much.
Many of today's climbers are very tiny, thin, even super young
people, and weight is definitely a factor. You see how the young
girls' gymnastic team operates. If one of them gets a little taller
or heavier, a few years go by, they lose that magical and
crucial lightness. I have cited Eric Varney, a fellow who was pencil
thin and walked up one day to the boulders and did the Varney
Direct, a little testpiece yet. He knew little about climbing, but
he could pull himself up so easily, with no weight. That's one
reason we can admire someone such as John Gill, who is a relatively
large man and developed that one-finger one-arm lever strength.
Incredible. Alex Honnold simply has the gift of mentality. He is able
to stay in control as he climbs near his limit. That perhaps is
a new level of consciousness. Is he better than other climbers
before, in terms of technique, strength, or other things? Perhaps
not. Probably Greg Lowe was stronger way back in the mid-60s... But
that Greg climbed so well then, and did so many bold things,
without the level of consciousness the world now enjoys... is a real
tribute.
It's all very complicated, and no broad generalizations work too well.
Wow, I didn't mean this to be so long. I just started typing, and
haven't even said a tenth of what I could... But yes there is a
progression of ability through the years, for various reasons. And
each of us has our own individual experience, which only we truly
can know....
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Good post Pat & Happy belated birthday.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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When we nearly freed the FW (50 to 60 moves of aid left) in the early 80s it was significant. Which pitch, on Diagonal Will, that you've lead?
I don't have the topo in front of me, but isn't FW 5.10+ tops (mostly 5.7, 5.8 through bushes and broken ledges - love the Black) up to the Stratosfear traverse? So, you put the 10+ in FW's 5.10+ A2 modern grade? Congrats - that sounds super significant. Not. What were your friends Coyne, Dunn, Webster and Hong doing at the time?
You still haven't named a specific pitch with a 80 ft runout 2000 ft off the ground. I've done quite a few routes in the Black, but I don't recall an 80 foot runout on any of them - nor even 2000 feet of climbing. These mythical high end routes of RP's and death falls are sounding more and more like windmills to me.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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JLP, have you been on the Painted Wall? I have significant doubts that you've climbed anything in the black. But your mouth sure flaps a lot. All my climbing down there was with out bolt kit, cams or micro gear so yes in those days longer runouts were what you faced. And yes we did add to the free climbing difficulty of the Forrest Walker. Sadly Leonard brought the PW down to his level by rap inspecting, rap rehersing and rap placing gear on the Stratosfear. It was shameful.
How about the pre-retro bolted crux pitch of Gwondonnaland Boogie? Will that work for you?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Whenever listening to climber spray about runouts use climbers math. Cut every claimed distance in half ;)
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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More BS from Philo, but no details. Tradheads hate giving up the details. Everything was climbed in a storm using soft dogshit as pro, too. All I see are windmills, endless windmills...
There's no doubt hard trad routes exist and some of them have long and scary runouts. It's just that very few of you seem to have a clue about them, other than that they exist. You seem to feel that placing gear on your moderates somehow connects you to them and gives you a better understanding of their nature. It doesn't.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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This is kind of painful to watch.
JLP says:
"If you are looking for difficult high quality routes with natural pro, you will eventually you run out of routes - to the point where, at the higher grades, they don't even exist"
Truth.
And ya'll come back with some smug dumb sh#t about "go to the Sierra" or name off a bunch of mixed routes in the Alps first done generations ago. Your collective inability to put forth an actual counter argument speaks volumes.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Wherefore art thou Dulcinea?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Deja vu all over.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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The OP's premise is that hard climbers haven't gotten any harder because doing 5.11 70's style is still hard and the exact same % of the climbing population is forever plateaued there. The conversation moved on from there. It's not a surprise some of you haven't been able to keep up, given the content of your posts.
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