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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 29, 2012 - 12:54am PT
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HFCS
I think MissJ crawled back under the rock it came from.
Poor rock.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Aug 29, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Because of Pascal's wager I am a Christian. More a Deist I suppose. In my 20's I was one of those awful opinionated evangelicals, thank goodness grew out of that. Honestly, what finally pulled me away was hearing all those sermons that if I just believed enough what I was praying for would change. I was told if the holy spirit was truly in me things would change. Well, I prayed and prayed and in my youthful hopes of what God would do, it never happened.
Just what was this thing I wanted so? in despair my then husband to soften his ways towards me and the kids, that he would no longer be such a narcissist. It was all in vain, the man never changed and that is when I lost my faith. All those sermons, all the advice from Pastors was bunk. I got divorced, so took my own course of action.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
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The thread started out with a lot of nasty posts, so I ignored it for awhile.
What happened that lead you to follow the trail to Jesus? How did you find your faith?
Born into a very Catholic family. However, we don't believe everything that our parents teach us forever. As a child, I tested my belief in childlike ways. Whenever I was in trouble - not a frequent event and always traumatizing - I would pray. God seemed to be providing a hand. T
The defining point for me happened when I was 18 and pregnant. Everyone treated this event like a catstrophe. Two opinions were hammered into me - 1)get an abortion and have a future or 2)too bad girl, your life is over, you are destined to life in the trailer park. I was so afraid to talk to my parents, but it was time. I confided into my parish priest who CONGRATULATED me for the new life. When I asked him how to tell someone a message that they did not want to hear (meaning how do I tell my parents), he said to be honest, people will surprise you. Have faith. The very positive and supporting messages that he gave me seemed to represent God's message to me. This new life was a precious gift. The world treated this event as a catastrophe, but this baby deserved love and celebration, like any other baby. Father Donnelly was the only person that celebrated this baby with me. A couple weeks later, I felt the need to go to church on Thanksgiving and felt a very personal message that God still loved me, as imperfect as I am.
2. How does God help you deal with life? What do you have that helps you to take comfort in the Christian Life?
Courage to change what I can, accept that which I can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference....I am never truly alone. I am also very lucky to be part of a terrific tiny little parish of 65 families. It is so refreshing to see people look after and care for one another. Yes, there are the human, petty squablles. But in the end, these people are not simply going to mass, they fill backpacks with school supplies, they put together food baskets, they man the homeless shelter in the winter, they run activities at the prison, they raise funds for the arthitis foundation, Komen, etc. I am motivated to do more for the community because the people of this parish try to live the life. Catholics are a very small minority in this area. So the backpacks we fill, the food that we distribute, the shelters that we support are for people that do not share the same faith or any faith.
3. What is your affiliation? Catholic, Methodist, or perhaps a local Church or person you would like to acknowledge? Perhaps you follow Jesus from afar, unaffiliated with any group.
I am Catholic. My Dad is a Methodist who married into a French Catholic family knowing that my mom was a devout Catholic. My husband is a christian part of my Catholic Church, raised Catholic but was a baptist as a young adult. I don't think God is as concerned with denominations and every particular detail we may or may not believe. His son certainly seemed to be quite compassionate to all.
I would acknowledge Father O'Dea, who taught me that sin is rooted in selfishness. I love Father Donnelly who provided that support at the most pivotal time of my life. I attended a Catholic High School run by the most wonderful women led by Sister Corley. She never forgot any of her girls, even decades after the school closed. She still looks after my Dad in her new role in a Catholic hospital. I am also inspired by Father Cascia who founded a most wonderful program to foster positive relationships with former enemies through youth sports. Bringing Vietnamese, Cambodian and Russian children to the US for wrestling and baseball matches - that was quite an undertaking in the 70s and 80s. He also got us looking beyond our town with his support for St. Vincent DePaul soup kitchen and shelter in the "big city" next to my hometown.
The very last time that he drove a car was to give my mom the last rites. He was losing his vision. You'd never think of him as your stereotypical priest. He was a cigar smoking, rough man with a very big heart.
I put those names out there because there is too much delight in publicizing the human beings with roles in the church who have abused their positions. We rarely hear about those who have had a positive impact on the community.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 29, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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I think therefore I like Pascal.--Deshiker
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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I knew that into a thread asking for Christians to share their experience, as Christians and climbers, with other Christian climbers, some of the usual spray would blow. I must say, though, that luggi and Jody really got the better of Dr. F., Jingy, HFCS and Wade Icey on the issue of reading the Bible and quoting out of context.
As just one example:
"GAY MARRIAGE. Nothing."
Unfortunately for our lazy readers, Matt:19:4-6 reads:
"'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.'"
I'm sure that there are plenty of ways to rationalize this with current opinion, but I see no way to say that He said "nothing" about the subject.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 29, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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The issue was not gays, but gay marriage. If you see nothing, perhaps it's time to see an ophthalmologist. We climbers have a tendency toward premature cataracts.
Or are you saying you don't need to read the Bible to know what it says and doesn't say? That would require something more than better eyesight.
;>)
John
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
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figurative narrative, a small index of a once vast library, translated a million times over, influenced for a thousand reasons, being taken literally and applied to modern day social issues...I f*#king love it!!
There's a lot of books in this world, I can find support for just about anything in books, even hanging ghey men while raping them (W. S. B.). To put stock in one book, especially a book saying it's the only book to listen to, is pretty lame...the Quoran does the same, with the same stories, same people, same messages...yet you Christians and Muslims love to kill each other, look at what two interpretations of the same book has done? Do these people lift their heads from said book and ever look around?
I would rather put stock in Johnathan Livingston Seagull...thank you..
I am sorry, but I think less of those who believe in a magical sky wizard and let a book rule them, and I have good sound reasons, facts, to back up my opinion...
The very existence of this thread is offensive to me, please go to the bible humper forums, there are many. I bet they have entire affirmation sections. Complaining about these types of responses after creating this thread here...well that will complete the circle wouldn't it?
Religion is dead in the face of logic, reason and science. The life I see is directly at odds with the interpretations of the bible, even though it does have some good messages, it's perverted by the religions that hold it up as god and it enables them to persecute, kill, rule and treat others unfairly and without much actual thought... religion is the heroin of the ignorant, and education is the medication to rid our world of it's cancer...
The evolution of religion is quite interesting though, why it exists and how it came about, it goes back a very long time, to the birth of our questions and believe it or not science has already explained it if you bother to educate yourself...
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:14pm PT
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I have read the bible about 5 times at various ages, the Quran twice...but to be honest the I Ching and the Art of War have much more to say than either of them...
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Reading the bible eh? Maybe you can help me out here Elezarian:
I need some advice from you, regarding some elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev.21:20 states that I may ! not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
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Seamstress,
Thank you for sharing your faith with us.
I first heard about JC from a catholic nun. In fact, most of what I new of Him from 7-18 was what i had learned from them in my youth (7-13). Which was the basic gospel story. That is all anyone can do really, share that story and leave it up to whether to accept it or reject it. And I attribute the sharing of that story with me by a nun at seven years old to my having enough faith in Him to call on His name at 8y.o. and having been literally saved (along with a spiritual salvation) from a very brutal death.
I got a bad start (kind of) shortly after i turned seven and we had taken my younger brother to get baptized. My aunt had convinced my parents that he should be baptized. As the ceremony began, my aunt asked the priest if he would also baptize me. I had heard her conversation in regards to the consequences of not getting baptized. He refused, told her I was to old & it was to late. My aunt got pretty upset and he relented, gave me a disgusting look and flicked some "holy water" into my face. Then continued with my little brothers baptism with this look of holy joy...! i am glad that I did not let this discourage me from further consideration on exactly who this JC really was, i met the nun i spoke about above shortly after.
I could care less what the current "official" stance of the RCC is in regards to baptism and everything else is. But i do give them credit, particularly a nun, of hearing the basic story of the gospel which eventually did lead me to salvation a year or so later.
And I do believe i have other brothers and sisters in Christ among the RCC. But, if they are relying on what some priest did or said to them when they were 1y.o. or younger, all I can say or do is wish them good luck!
The vast majority of my family either were or are Roman Catholic. I grew up with it in Cape Breton, Canada! My older cousin (13-14) who saved my life at seven years old (after I drowned) became a priest at 21! I spent a lot of time in CB over a 30 year period and spoke with him often (he served in the US but, would like myself, also return home for vacation). All my uncles & aunts, cousins, grandparents, etc.! i imagine that they eventually all came to a point were the either excepted or rejected His personal relationship. But it did annoy me when they would laugh and tell stories about the small handful, select few nuns who would talk joyfully about Jesus. They would avoid them at all cost. I had met and new a few of them and they were indeed transformed. They were simply very loving and filled with the Holy Spirit (JC). That was a threat to my relatives and friends, sorry to say.
[But they were very comfortable with the once weekly procession and once a month confession...secrets sown to priest. I am not being judgmental, i have committed many, perhaps all of those very sins. I just don't put my faith in some mere man dressed in a robe and put on some pedastal to determine what my penance should be in regards to those sins, blah, blah, blah...!] ... (bit of a rant, i suppose this could be applied to any religion/denomination including evangelicals& fundamentalist whom everyone throws into one big lump and loves to hate. i do consider myself both 1) evangelical because i believe we are here first and foremost to evangelize anyone who has ears to here (that is the key) the vast majority don't, so best move on too fertile ground. SuperTopo IS NOT fertile ground. And, for the most part, puts us in the defensive position arguing with those that do not have "ears to here"...major waste of time).
Back to my initial post...
Just sayin, i am glad that I had three (3) experiences at an early age:
1). the priest who had rejected my desire to be baptized (it was myself who had requested it after hearing my aunts discussion and the results of not getting it, blah, blah blah). Because i was soon to learn & know now that baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
2) the nun who shared the gospel with me.
3) the situation which resulted in my own faith to call on the name of Christ to intervene in my life!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
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Nice interpretation, Riley.
With all this "banter" I can sense enmity forming in the minds of some.
It is a tiny window into the past and how the Thirty Years War began.
Seems like it's time to stop the arguments and let folks witness in
"Peace"
(in the words of Karl Baba, one of the most rational among us).
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
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Karen,
Sorry about your "evangelical' experience's early on in your life. I recall not being allowed into several/many "evangelical" churches shortly after i graduated from high school and let my hair grow down past my shoulders. There is no way that you can identify with this now, it was a very different time and culture (late 60's). But it did, perhaps, have some input with my drifting away from the church, fellowship with other Christians & my personal walk with Christ (not my relationship). Just simply went my own way for a season or two (10-15 years). My salvation was secure, but I was certainly not growing or sowing, i was just drifting.
And, occasionally still do have my difference's with various denomination, churches, etc.! The bottom line is, in regards to a persons salvation, we did agree on the fundamentals; a personal relationship to JC. It was what they added to it in someway or another that causes friction. People point to all the various denominations (Christian) the bottom line is the fundamental question of who JC is and His relationship to you. For the most part, they all agree on this. Society uses the vast number of denominations as an excuse to not believe in Christ. So be it. But, there is no difference in regards to what they believe in regards to salvation! Just sayin!!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:37pm PT
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Regardless of what people may think, Christians have nearly as much chance of leading a moral and just life as do non-believers.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Reilly, et al,
Man creates the friction.
It is really a very simple message. So simple, even a child can understand it. All the "religion" that man adds to it is what creates the friction. Obviously there is another component to it, other than man, that revels in all the "friction" and is rarely mentioned either here nor in the vast number of "evangelical/fundamental" churches let alone the vast number of other churches that go by the name of Christ. His name is Lucifer, or was at one time.
Wudevah...!
edit: i do want to say this, the d00d is very real. and very powerful i might add. he did show up and offer JC all the kingdoms of the world (pronto). JC never doubted that he (Satan) could do this, he could have. That is power, and it's a power that the world identifies with, unfortunately. and if you think he is just some fictional character in some mythical book, then ya got another thing coming. just sayin...! friction is his middle name (or one of them) and the world is his domain.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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Aug 29, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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Yeah, if it weren't for Man, old Nick would be out of work.
Our friction helps to light the fires of his hell, if there be a hell other than this vale of tears and doubt.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
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I had a friend once, had everything the world could offer (or that money could buy). He had inherited 50 million dollars at the age of 21 (1970/prollie = 250M now). The one thing that money could not buy was power & fame (what the dood was craving) he already had fortune.
He grew up in the lap of luxury, his mother married a very well known Hollywood actor (Clark Gable) when he was 4-5. Lived on his ranch near Malibu, as his stepson throughout his youth (5-19). Anyway, one day when we were both around 21, (we were born a few months apart and grew up under very different financial circumstances, i might add), he came over and plopped himself right down in front of me and told me how Satan had come and made him a personal offer. He said that he (Satan) showed him what he could do with all his money. He was dead serious, and I never doubted him. I never mentioned it to anyone (actually my best friend was nearby & heard the whole conversation).
The dood definitely changed after that. Died just six years later. A book came out about him around 2007. Written buy the same guy that wrote & made the movie "Z-Boy's" or "Dogtown Boy's' i forget the title, it's about the early skateboard team that road for Zephyr surfboards/skateboards in the mid 70's! He mentions that he told him the same story just before he died. The guy that wrote "Hollywood Babylon" and a few related movies, began making one about him. Considers him one of the "27 Club" in relation to his encounter with & subsequent death at 27 y.o.!
He makes "an offer ya can't refuse!" sorry to say. That is, unless your already sealed in the blood of Christ! Something that my "friend" wasn't! I am glad that he can only be in one place at one time and is rather selective in whom he chooses to encounter. But, i have no doubt that he has approached many in the entertainment industry, particularly music. They have come out and said so, and I do not doubt them. From rap & metal to country. Personally, I don't really give a damn & I listen and enjoy much of it. Not making any particular statement other than i believe they are telling the truth. He (Satan) has his subtle ways, and all is well on earth and going just as planned, as far as he is concerned. Just sayin, so ...
Wudevah!!
edit: Squished -- i have no interest in that crap, nor spaceships on the moon (no disrespect meant in regards to Klinger), aliens & flying saucers, bogus dates set for the "rapture/Christ's return", the 2012 hullabaloo, planning for Armageddon, etc.! it's all diversion, plain and simple.
NOR, do i have any desire or inclination to convince you otherwise, once again...I cud give a sh#t what you do or don't believe! Just wanted to let ya know that you won't see me anywhere near the "contrails convention" should ya decide to go, but have fun & i do hope ya enjoy yerself!
BTW, my friends name was Bunker Spreckels, RIP! He inherited the Spreckles Sugar fortune (which was vast at the time).
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Aug 29, 2012 - 07:13pm PT
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
you guys should go to the contrails convention...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
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You Christians should try to emulate Obama; wife, two well bred children, no scandals etc.instead of darlings of the "Christian Right" like Gingrich and Limbaugh- multiple marriages, adultery, drug abuse.
Christianity should be a lifestyle not a label.
The "Christian Right" is nearly always Wrong when it comes to matters of faith and morals.
Has a nice ring....the Christian Wrong.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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El cap you asked...Reading the bible eh? Maybe you can help me out here Elezarian:
I need some advice from you, regarding some elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
May I....this is what the passage means...taken from history looking at how the people lived...
"If an impoverished Israelite sold himself to a Jewish creditor for nonpayment of debt, he was not to be treated as a slave but as a hired servant and was to be released in the Year of Jubilee, if this came before the end of his sex years of service. The Jews were permitted to have slaves from the Gentile nations, and these were considered their own property, to be handed down to their descendants. But Jewish people were not permitted to be slaves themselves.
I know what your going to say...Slavery. Yes it existed everywhere in the land. When another group of people conquered a territory, guess where the losers went if they were not killed. This verse is a vivid reminder that the Israelites and their land belonged to the Lord and that He should be recognized as the rightful owner. Neither God's people or God's land could be sold permanently.
You have to look at the context of the land of the time to be able to better understand what the circumstances where and the customs.
Do you wish me to address your other verses of concern?
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Aug 29, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
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donini,
You watch to much tv, or perhaps read to many blogs or maybe the print media in general. perhaps check out what some of yer local believers are doingor what their respective churches are involved in. i would venture to say it has nothing to do with "gingrich", "limbaugh" nor politics in general... just sayin!
edit:but i do agree with your general assumption, or assertion, that being, that "Christianity' has been hi-jacked by politics. In America anyway. The US is only a small segment of the Christian Church (body of believer's)... and politics is simply a diversion from what should really be the focus of it, here or anywhere!
Yes, Mother Teresa is an excellent example. All we can really do is live our life as an example ourselves.
Donini, there is a long story behind it. There is a small portion of "christians" that are what is known as "Dominionist" their belief is thatn the 1,000 year reign of Christ has already began and that the world will eventually become 100% Christian. Totally bogus, as is their claim of the "prosperity gospel/health & wealth gospel" i know this sounds besides the point or whatever to you, but, they have mislead many in the regular church (for lack of a better name) over the past 20 years or so and it has snowballed to what it is today. Also a part of the great falling away "Apostacy" that is prophesied to happen. All this is mumbo-jumbo to you, but simply said, there isn't a whole lot the church can do about it. Perhaps we waited to long, or simply didn't ID it until it was to late (many still haven't, imo)!!
The point being, they believe they have some integral part in the whole process. Pretty pathetic situation. I, personally, don't predict a good outcome for America, sad to say, but who am i, so don''t loose hope!
"The US is only a small segment of the Christian Church...!" for example, there are approximately 100 million believer's in the underground church in China. It was and continues to be a very persecuted church for remaining underground (their only alternative is joining the state church, and they refuse to do so). When one very well known evangelist told them that the "Church" in America was praying for them (in regards to their persecution, etc) they responded, said that they pray frequently and fervently for the American "Church" (body of believer's) & that they would know/undergo similar persecution to purify it. Amen!!
JD, ^^^ and until that happens, ain't nothing gonna change. Read II Chronicles 7:14 (it is just one short paragraph/2-3 sentences)!! It says "If the people who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from THEIR wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and i will heal their land..."
We have a very proud (in general) church here in America! God does not tell the non-believers to turn from their wicked ways, he tells the church. Read the sentence or two above that (7:13)! "When I shut up the heavens so that their is no rain, or send locusts to devour the land, or send a plague among my people, if my people will..."! Great calamity fell upon the people/country, He did not blame the people, he blamed the church (Israel at the time) . Unfortunately, that is what it will take for us here. Once again, it prollie sounds like superstition and mumbo-jumbo to you...time will tell. I am no prophet, but I do know Him. He is very powerful, i have tested that power in ways i prollie shouldn't have. I have known Him from a young age. Furthermore, I know that nothing i say will change anyone's mind, so i won't try.
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