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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jul 24, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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It seems a strict constitutional view would compel the conclusion that we only have the right to bear muzzle loaders?
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:05pm PT
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And if we banned alcohol nobody would drink and drive. We'd save well over 11 thousand people a year! After all nobody needs to drink alcohol right? And if we pass laws forbidding the ownership or consumption if it then people would, of course, follow them.
I don't drink. I can't see why anyone would. You don't hunt with booze. Therefore none of you should be able to drink. That's the logic you present.
This event, although tragic, is a statistical non-issue compared to much larger threats to society at large. How many tens of thousands of AR's were sold last year and used every day without incident? One was used to kill people in a theater one tragic night and everyone clamors for the laws to be changed? He also used a shotgun. We should ban those too I guess.
Again, the human WILL is the issue here. Not the tools.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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Again, the human WILL is the issue here. Not the tools.
in a thread titled 'The Gun debate sandbox' I imagine that the tools are the issue.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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About 2 or 3 times a year some wacko goes off and goes on a killing spree with a high powered gun. Sometimes it's a pistol, usually it's a combination of a semiautomatic pistol and an assault rifle. Yet, the pro-gun crowd stll proclaims that we don't need to talk about gun control. These are the people who ran to the ammo store when President Obama came into office because the NRA scared them into thinking that legislation was coming that would place limits on ammo purchases. Didn't happen. Now they have shelves of ammo alongside their Y2K supplies and Ted Nugent albums.
Hey, you gunsters have won the day, there's no arguement about that. It will take a body count higher than 12 before the public finally gets tired of it and politicians begin to stand up to the paranoid bullies at the NRA.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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The Magna Carta was signed in 1215. Guns were not invented then. There is also no "human right" - ie, principle of international law that recognizes a right to have guns. Finally, it is useless for us to make our own interpretations of the Consitution. They are meaningless. Only the courts' interpretations have any weight. So, if you want to make constitutional law arguments, the way to do it is to cite case law.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
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crankster said:
there's no arguement about that. It will take a body count higher than 12 before the public finally gets tired of it and politicians begin to stand up to the paranoid bullies at the NRA.
probably true
kind of like seat belts, took tens of thousands of deaths before laws were passed
are guns different, exempt because our constitution includes ownership as a right?
it would take a massive change in public opinion to cause our Supreme Court to overturn the 2nd Amendment purely out of public outrage
seems very unlikely
maybe after a huge number of mass murders and 50 years in the future?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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Norton writes:
"are guns different, exempt because our constitution includes ownership as a right?"
Nope. Since when has The Constitution ever gotten in the way of Big Government?
Guns are different because government tools ( laws ) cannot possibly make a difference. About half of elected officials know this, and understand they are powerless to do anything effective.
Prohibition has never worked. Not once. Everything that has ever been *banned* is still available right now. For reference, see The War On Drugs.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Get outa the line of fire and back in the frying pans - dudes
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 24, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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Didn't happen. Now they have shelves of ammo alongside their Y2K supplies and Ted Nugent albums.
LOL. I own and appreciate guns but find gun NUTS very funny. You see them all the time at the shooting range. I have at least a dozen things I'd rather spend my time and money on than more guns. But to each his own I guess. I'd rather spend my time climbing or doing something else personally challenging or rewarding. Guns give some a feeling of power that can be pretty pathetic.
I think the limitation of 10 round capacity magazines is probably the best thing to reduce the ability of psychos to cause mass destruction but not impede on the right to bear arms too much.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 24, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Here's the text of the magna carta. I dont see any part about swords or other medieval weapons. I am quite sure there is no international consensus on the right to bear arms, which is the definition of human rights (universally agreed legal concepts).
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 24, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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This happens more than someone using a gun to defend themselves against a criminal..
(07-24) 08:43 PDT RICHMOND -- A Richmond man died after he was shot while struggling with his son over a gun, police said Tuesday.
James Morris, 41, was shot dead at a home on the 3000 block of Sun Court about 7 p.m. Monday, said police Lt. Bisa French.
Morris and his son were arguing and struggling over a gun when the weapon fired, killing the father, French said.
Police were investigating the shooting as a possible homicide but were also exploring the possibility that Morris died accidentally, French said.
The son's name has not been released. He has not been arrested.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
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Ron, it's about gun-nut whackery, that's what it's about.
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Jul 24, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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Its about the mockery the lega system has made of our abiltites to function as a society. ITs about the NEVER ending defense that will now ensue over this jackwagon. It will be about the new movie of the week- probably already in planning. Its about condoning the hundreds of thousand of known gang members here.( that in itself is a MAJORITY of homicides yearly here.) Its about the coddling of convicted murderers and their never ending "rights". By "right" this guy should have had his due process two days ago- which should have taken all of an hour in the view of overwhelming evidence, and he should have been quietly hung w/o fan fare.
If you don't like America, leave. Sounds like you'd be happier in Communist China or Russia, or Iran, where they don't bother with things like "Bill of Rights".
The Constitution and our Bill of Rights demands more than lip service from us.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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Maybe they do, Ron. I'm just really sick of all the rationalizing whackery that you gun-nutz spew while we await the next gun-related tragedy.
You guys seem to pretty much shrug your shoulders and make trite comments like 'freedom ain't free', and it's the person, not the gun. You don't accept, promote or advance any effort to make any changes to either the person or the gun.
Not to be overly-harsh, but I'd love to hear your view if one of your close family members had been killed in Aurora (or any other such tragedy). Betcha the spewing would take an about-face.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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These guys are rarely captured alive. Usually they off themselves as soon as it starts looking bad for them - or they're shot by the first person who shows up with a gun.
Having one in captivity will make for an interesting study, and so will his defense.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 24, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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Alona, if you are going to lecture on historical documents, at least get the name right. Its Magna Carta, not Carter.
I'm not sure I follow the reasoning for high-capacity mags or auto weapons. You don't need them for hunting, and it is pretty hard to justify them for self defense. You can't carry them regularly, and realistically how often is your home going to be attacked by multiple well-armed assailants(about as often as zombies)?
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Gary
climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:06pm PT
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so Gary,, your saying yur going to agree with the circus of waste that is now starting over this person? Youll agree he deserves hundreds of thousands of dollars of free represntation? That WE will have to spend even more to convict him, then jail him and feed him for the next fourty plus years? Youll agree with yet another BS movie of the week commemorating HIM and his act?
Yes, I agree. We have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights that guarantees these rights to everyone. It's easy to sit back and bray "patriotism" and "Americanism", but it's not always so easy to live up to those ideas.
Me, im going to stick with his due process taking 1 hour and sentence carried out the following day. That will start the CLOSURE for ALL of the victims and families involved.
That's the price of freedom. If you don't like it, there's plenty of work in the People's Republic of China. They don't f*#k around there. Trial and a bullet to the back of the head all in one day. You'd love it.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
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"...since youve labeled me a gun nut, so be it. "
Ron, given your prolific response on the subject, how could anyone mistake you for anything else?
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
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Alright, a brief recap of this thread for those just joining.
1.guns suck
2. Idiots suck
3. Idiots with guns definately suck
Lesson, the only way to control the damage caused by idiots with guns is to enact gun control laws banning assault weapons.
The kids shot dead in colorado didnt give a f*#k that some ignorant moron from moundhouse (hi ron!) or other inbred nevadans think they have some historical right to possess weapons that did not exist at the time the constitution was written. They just didnt want to get massacred while watching a movie with friends. Oh btw, gun lovers and nra supporters, gfys.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Jul 24, 2012 - 03:49pm PT
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down with the NRA!!!
so sick of gun whacktards pretending that the solution is absolutely everyone everywhere should be carrying guns... this argument is too stupid for words
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