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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Too funny, Anders!
John
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Hey Skip,
Thanks for informing me of our personal connection. Brings back some good memories for me. I remember your name. Not sure I am picturing the right person though. You worked for Shane after I left or was there any overlap? Been a couple years since I last saw Shane. The first time I saw him after his bypass surgery, I only recognized him by his voice.
I try to not take offense at people's opinions or even the way they are delivered, but thank you for the apology and the encouragement.
I disagree with the right wing representatives here much of the time, but whenever I read some personal account from one, I am always impressed and think, what a cool and interesting person.
But enough of this chumminess. Lets get back to arguing before we get kicked off the forum!
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dirtbag
climber
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Cute girlfriends. :-)
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Gene
Social climber
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I've been waiting all day for a Locker comment about that picture.
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dirtbag
climber
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Yep,I'm sure he'd do them.
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Gene
Social climber
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He'd probably Walk a mile for a Camel™
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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There was a recent arms shipment from Iran seized in a Nigerian port that was bound for Sudan or Gaza.
Just letting y'all know.....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Reposting this from the Palin thread because it speaks to how something like Wikileaks could have prevented the whole Iraq war.
Leb writes
But the issue is was it or was it not reasonable for Bush to believe that Iraq was amassing WMD and had intent to deploy them. That is the key question in whether the invasion of Iraq (which in retrospect was NOT a good idea) was justified. Hindsight is always 20:20. The key question is whether or not a reasonable and prudent person would have come to that conclusion given the same evidence.
The more evidence is looked at, the more it's plain that Bush was told by many of his own credible sources that there were no WMDs. He basically pressured some to distort that it was possible that they had them. the fact you don't know this is only evidence you haven't looked closely. But even if they did have old chemical weapons, they were absolutely no threat to us and they weren't threatening us in any way. Lots of other nations were plainly aiming at WMDs and making much more threatening noises (N Korea) and we did nothing to them and that's not to mention our hypocrisy of letting Israel skate on TONS of Wmds and Islamic Pakistan to boot.
But just to provide a little reference
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd
"On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam's inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.
Nor was the intelligence included in the National Intelligence Estimate of October 2002, which stated categorically that Iraq possessed WMD. No one in Congress was aware of the secret intelligence that Saddam had no WMD as the House of Representatives and the Senate voted, a week after the submission of the NIE, on the Authorization for Use of Military Force in Iraq. The information, moreover, was not circulated within the CIA among those agents involved in operations to prove whether Saddam had WMD.
On April 23, 2006, CBS's "60 Minutes" interviewed Tyler Drumheller, the former CIA chief of clandestine operations for Europe, who disclosed that the agency had received documentary intelligence from Naji Sabri, Saddam's foreign minister, that Saddam did not have WMD. "We continued to validate him the whole way through," said Drumheller. "The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy......"
Bush is a war criminal and guilty of doing something even worse than the 9-11 conspiracy folks accuse him of. Yet we do nothing about a guy who created a war based on lies. They impeached Clinton for a blowjob lie but a lie kills thousands, makes millions homeless and costs a trillion and we pretend nothing happened.
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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The stupidity of Bill Clinton will go down in history.
I'm sure you'd like that to be true. But there's this guy... his name is George..... and he one-upped Bill on every level of stupidity. Shrubby even found a way to redefine stupidity.
Clinton is a rather intelligent individual. It's why he could lie his way out of a White House Blow Job. Shrub couldn't lie his way out of a wet paper bag.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Speaking of stupidity!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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You know I have been thinking . . .
All of us are going to have our own Wikileaks moment on Judgement Day.
The moral of the story?
Don't do stupid, illegal, unethical, or immoral things or acts.
Abide by the Law. Abide by GOD's Law.
The only people worried about Wikileaks or any whistle-blower who gives them leaked information, are those who break the law.
Whistle-blowers and organizations like wikileaks keep our government and corporations honest. This is a good thing. If there is no fear of corruption ever being exposed, then you have government, corporations, and banks out of control with power.
You can still have secrets. You can still spy. You can still protect our Country. Just don't break The Law to do so. Don't try to hide your crimes behind State Secrets, the American Flag, and then shred our Constitution while you do so.
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Esparza
Trad climber
Westminster, CA
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I finished a good book several weeks ago by Economist Joseph Stiglitz called "The Roaring Nineties." Now, I am About 100 pages into Chomsky's "Hegemony or Survival." Fascinating and sad how all the dots connect; especially these days with wikileaks and what-not.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Skip wrote
And while you are at it see if the original accusation was a blow job or rape.
It was rape.
No, it was lying about his relationship with Monica. Link to the Rape accusation? I thought not.
Who wouldn't feel inclined to lie about cheating on your wife to the whole nation. How much of anybody's business was it?
Peace
karl
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Democracy Now reports (12/3) that the rape charges turn on Assange's failure to use a condom during consensual sex.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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From the BBC today.
3 December 2010
Operation Mincemeat: How a dead tramp fooled Hitler
By Megan Lane BBC News Magazine
During World War II, the Nazis fell for an audacious British plot to pass off a dead tramp as an officer carrying secret documents. How - and are such tactics still in use today?
Rat poison does not furnish the desperate with an easy death. But this was how Glyndwr Michael, jobless and homeless in the winter of 1943, ended his life.
Found in an abandoned warehouse in King's Cross, London, one cold January night, his death certificate noted the cause of death as "phosphorus poisoning. Took rat poison - bid [to] kill himself while of unsound mind".
He was not buried in the capital, nor his hometown in south Wales. Instead, the coroner said he was to be "removed out of England" for burial.
And how. For Glyndwr Michael died a second time - a death that helped change the course of World War II.
After three months on ice in Hackney Morgue, his body was shipped off to the coast of southern Spain for an elaborate plot to fool the Nazis.
Intelligence officers Charles Cholmondeley and Ewen Montagu had painstakingly transformed the corpse into a soldier - the fictitious Major William Martin - for whom they had spent months creating a plausible backstory.
ID card, cigarettes and keepsakes from a fictional sweetheart named Pam, all placed in the corpse's pockets to build up his identity The "wallet litter" used to paint a picture of the man
Into his pockets went an identity card, ticket stubs and mementos from a fiancee. Chained to his wrist was a briefcase containing a letter marked "PERSONAL AND MOST SECRET", identifying Greece for invasion by Allied forces. Greece was a dummy target - the real plan was to invade Sicily.
When found floating near the port of Huelva, the corpse was assumed to be a British military courier who'd perished in a plane crash. The Spanish authorities agreed to a quick interment - due to the heat and stench of decomposition - and placed his belongings under lock and key.
And so the homeless Welsh alcoholic came to be buried with full military honours in a sunlit Spanish cemetery, under a headstone bearing the name William Martin, RM - for Royal Marines.
Letter in the briefcase,written by Sir Archibald Nye, Vice Chief of the Imperial General Staff in the War Office, addressed to General Sir Harold Alexander, the British commander in North Africa The best way to fake a top secret letter was to get a real general to write it
Michael/Martin was but a prop in Operation Mincemeat, brainchild of Ian Fleming, and put into action by Cholmondeley and Montagu, Churchill's "corkscrew thinkers" in the War Office.
The coroner of St Pancras had been in on it, had supplied a suitable body with no visible injuries, and falsified documents to suggest his family had agreed to the plan. They had not - his parents were dead.
Fittingly for a deception dreamed up by a novelist, the true story of the fictional officer was turned into a Hollywood film, The Man Who Never Was, in the 1950s, after Montagu wrote a book about the plot.
A tangled web
But why Spain? While ostensibly neutral, it was riddled with Nazi spies. The corpse was to be the bait for a meticulous, well-connected, yet unimaginative Nazi agent active in the area - Adolf Clauss.
Reconstruction of the body dropped in sea near Spanish port The submarine captain recited part of the funeral service as he set the body adrift (reconstruction)
The British hope was that the false documents carried by the fake officer would be convincing enough to be passed up the chain of command to Hitler himself.
At the time, the war hung in the balance with Germany still holding sway across swathes of Europe and Russia.
"This was a period when there was a lot of spying and double-bluffing going on," says Amyas Godfrey, of the defence think-tank Rusi (Royal United Services Institute).
"There were other deceptions, such as a magician dispatched to North Africa to create a fake army out of mirrors and blow-up tanks.
Enigma allowed an operator to type in a message, then scramble it by means of three to five notched wheels, which displayed different letters of the alphabet. The receiver needed to know the exact settings of these rotors in order to reconstitute the coded text.
The Germans were convinced that Enigma output could not be broken, so they used it for all sorts of communications - on the battlefield, at sea, in the sky and, significantly, within its secret services.
"But Mincemeat was exceptional as the biggest roll of the dice. It was an extraordinary operation in extraordinary times. Do it once and do it well was - and is - very much the ethos."
And the British had an ace up their sleeves, says Ben Macintyre, whose book Operation Mincemeat is now a BBC documentary.
"We were, thanks to the code-breakers at Bletchley Park, essentially reading the Germans' mail. We knew what Hitler was thinking on an hour-by-hour basis."
Thanks to the successful decryption of Germany's Enigma cipher, Bletchley Park could read the top-secret communiques between Hitler and his forces. These intercepts provided Montagu and his team with insights into the key players, and allowed them to track the progress of their plan.
"I doubt such a plan would be feasible today, even in wartime," says Macintyre. "Imagine the scandal if it was revealed that British agents had deliberately stolen a dead body. One of the reasons it worked so well was that the organisers were left alone to get on with it, almost without supervision." Imagine the scandal if it was revealed today that British agents had stolen a dead body”
Prior to Mincemeat, they had created a network of fictitious double agents to feed misinformation to the Nazis. These imaginary spies were, like Michael/Martin, given jobs, hobbies, family, lovers and bank managers. The Germans thought they had an established spy network in the UK - in reality, they had none.
As the latest Wikileaks release reveals, the foibles of foreign counterparts is an integral part of intelligence gathering. Just as the leaked US diplomatic cables contain unflattering pen portraits of overseas leaders, Britain's declassified WWII intelligence files detail character quirks of key German figures.
All the better to pitch it right when negotiating - or seeking to deceive.
"The framers of Mincemeat based a lot of their planning on the personalities of the German spies. This has a strong modern resonance in the leaked diplomatic cables, with the emphasis on knowing what your opposite number is like," Macintyre told the BBC News Magazine.
Practice to deceive
After a tense week or so - it took the Germans several attempts to get sight of the briefcase's contents - photographs of the falsified documents made it to Hitler's desk. He was fooled, and moved an entire panzer division - 90,000 soldiers - to Greece.
Montagu - in charge of the plot Ewan Montagu spent months fleshing out the fake officer
Montagu and his team fired off a telegram to Churchill: "Mincemeat swallowed rod, line and sinker."
And so in early July, the Allies attacked Sicily. The island fell with but a fraction of the feared casualties and ship losses Britain had feared.
"Mussolini was soon toppled from power," says Macintyre. "Forced to confront this Allied invasion from the south, Hitler called off a huge offensive against the Soviets. The Germans were now on the back foot. The Red Army did not stop until it reached Berlin."
The tide of the war turned - thanks, in part, to the body of a tramp set adrift in the Atlantic."
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Fattrad,
Do you think this Wikileaks could actually be a COINTEPRO to wake people up to Iran getting Nukes and to get them on board to make it more agreeable to go after Iran? In other words, they let Wikileaks have some documents on purpose and then fake all the rage?
I'm just wondering. Seems awefully suspicious thinking about it now.
Not a thread drift just a quick answer is all that is necessary:
And do you really think the missile off of CA was from Israel or you just trying to be funny? Seriously.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Klimmer,
I seriously doubt they were released to build public opinion for a strike on Iran.
Fattrad,
Thanks for the honest answers. Yes, it would be a long way for Israel to do manuveurs. lol.
Thinking about the other possibility, it would be devilishly brilliant. Take down Wikileaks, and at the same time try to gain support to whack Iran and take out their nuke capability.
Now, I'm not saying that is what happened, but it makes me wonder. Coincidence? I don't know????????? Lol.
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