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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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I will go where I will & say as I wish.
I LIKE to tease your dumb ass.
There is no fence I won't cut. or wall I won't peer over.
I'm a bee in the ointment. Chaos fascinates me. So bite me.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 14, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
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a ghost is first and foremost a perception by the living. i think that would give us a basic consensus. my posting about "ghost science" early in this thread is a listing of the categories these perceptions fall into. they've been researched analytically for quite some time.
LEB, you seem to want to get into the advanced physics of it, and i doubt things are ripe for that. advanced physics itself comprises several schools of thought and it's an area which will probably never have the consensus you want. if you want to apply physics to this realm, there really isn't an alternative to getting into it yourself, or at least dealing with a physicist, like that fellow jan mentioned, who might be sympathetic.
the posting by largo which i mentioned is a step in that direction. misterE's link mentions a michael talbot, who may be your guy.
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i dunno where pate is in the mental health department, but i've found his obsession with nunporn to be downright healthy. at least it's been helpful for me to overcome certain vestigial qualms from a catholic adolescence.
my only problem is that most of them don't look like real nuns. they look like vogue models picking up some extra cash without so much as mumbling a hail mary. whatever website pate is downloading this second-rate stuff from has a real quality control problem. the real convents which survive these days are all strapped (hehe--what a word, huh?) for cash flow. that may be the place to start.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 14, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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LEB, i gave you date and time on the god thread. just scroll to that point--as good as lattitude-longitude.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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Coming from?
About what?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 14, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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OT - climbing related, Hudson Wyo is the fatherland of Bob Scarpelli, the world's best offwidth climber, till Shanti came to town!
Related, re DT's; I will always keep a grasshoper on hand for those critical moments with my droogs
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 11:50pm PT
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Jstan
"Very interesting and it gets to the point I raised. Our brains are not, always, working normally. When someone is near death is it so hard to conceive the brain remains unaffected?"
Lois in reply:
"Jstan,
I am really not pushing any one side of this or the other. I am not vested in either scenario meaning that paranormal phenomenon exist or that they don't. I am just interested in the topic and would like to take a look at the evidence. "
Lois again:
"jstan,
Well it is difficult for me to discern your - and other persons' - position on the subject of the paranormal. I, personally, try to keep an open mind and not get too vested one way or another although I do have leanings toward the positive (meaning supportive) side of the continuum. I cannot precisely tell where you stand."
Lois shall we apply Occam's Razor to your OP as we construct a hypothesis?
Your cat dies and your mind is processing that data during sleep, as is normal but probably had not completed it because you were also processing a lot of data from your new work environment. You were doing the processing needed for you to accept the fact the cat was not going to appear again, presumably something you did not prefer.
When you saw a similar cat in the act of claiming its new favorite position (what one cat really likes is probably going to be preferred by another) your mind, as it normally does interprets the data coming back from the eyes and the lower brain function. But this time it interpreted the image as identical to the one you had seen many times before. We do that, because as you yourself pointed out, it is more efficient to throw in the image that has been received before. Those synapses are stronger because they have been used before.
As a result you have the "strange" feeling the "cat came back."
Now it is not "my position" that this is the explanation. I claim this is a very simple hypothesis supported by data in the form of past experience and medical research that could well be what happened.
It is simple, and requires no assumptions about phenomena for which we have no objective data.
Now you know all this, so I did not need to go through this.
Do you suppose you could share with me what you are really up to here?
Besides being cool, we could begin to make some progress.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 02:43am PT
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I have been occasionally following this discussion thread with a 'strange feeling' of interest and dismay.
I consider this to be a very important subject of discussion; and find it very disturbing when some people can't even seem to maintain a dialog on simple aspects of the subject without lapsing into rude mutual disrespect; particularly considering the generally high level of intelligence and education of the participants.
Even the most interesting threads of reasoning and observation here seem to get buried in the noise. And there is a lot of published research materials on this subject that have not even been touched upon here. Accordingly I am not ready to leap into this thread, but will venture a toe in the water:
I was raised in the church in Boise Idaho; and rejected much of their teachings at a young age and gravitated towards a materialist philosophy. I grew up thinking of myself as a scientist, with an extensive chemistry and physics and computer systems lab in my garage and with telescopes and rockets.
Most of my professional career has been spent working with scientists and engineers in aerospace and environmental management. My specialty is developing systems management frameworks.
At a young age I went looking for a different sort of lab and gravitated to rock climbing, which proved to be excellent for the purpose; although the politics of Camp 4 turned out to be a major distraction to my reasons for climbing.
I have spent a lot of time solo climbing and wandering the wilderness and oceans. One unexpected result of this is a large collection of personal experiences that are very difficult for me to explain in materialistic terms. When you ask for personally experienced paranormal experiences, I hardly know where to start; other than to say that I am not at all surprised by some of the other stories that have been shared here.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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allapah
climber
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Aug 15, 2010 - 03:07am PT
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in the nineties benowitz and i got the waterman grant for winter climbs from the alaskan alpine club for the e. face Thorn in eastern alaska range (deltas)- we got flown in with old harvey wheeler in his 170, he used to take off right out of his driveway down there in the failed agriculture project lands outside Delta Junction where he had intended to be a crop duster, he was never as happy with dirtbag climbers-
we got dropped off johnson glacier but had to ski over to robertson, the first part of the trip was absurdly cold, we couldn't do a thing, we had four hours for travel each day before you had to start digging cave cause it was too cold for tents- we got to the Thorn, way too cold, allapa!, no FA today! that would fall to jeff years later with studly grade 5 ice drip... we skied back to the LZ, waited for harvey for weeks in the wind
during this time, i had a dream- i was in my parents bedroom from childhood and there was a volkswagon in their room, engine running- in the passenger side was this dude i barely knew from fairbanks, Mark... he was trying to tell me something.. i leaned closer to listen... he opened his mouth, and out of it came this horrific sound, like a Klingon death wail... i woke up and the sound was a savage gust of wind bending the bibler over into our faces...
when we got back to town weeks later, the big news was that 3 fairbanks guys had gotten munched over on the castner glacier, ice climbing in a gully with no runout zone the snow just stacked up on them- well, this was nearby where 10910 and i had been- the castner and the johnson are alaska range neighbors, we were probably the only two parties in those hills that day... one of the guys was Mark, guy in the Bug in my parents' bedroom in my dream, guy i had only met once (though jeff and i had mentioned him once or twice in conversation during the interminable hours in the tent on the Thorn attempt)- of course, i attempted to correlate date of accident with my dream... i didn't remember exactly, but they were within 48 hours of each other for sure...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 03:12am PT
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C'mon, Tom, don't leave us hangin' - tell us what you know.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 03:15am PT
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o Leb, I'm not reading all the crap on this thread
BUT, I remember OAAT (once apon a time ) you sent me a email that you said you knew that dead Yabo wanted me to listen to a song that you had sorta paranormally knew he wanted me to listen to.
Whats up with that?
I call BS.
I got it saved if you say it never happened.
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 15, 2010 - 03:32am PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 03:34am PT
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I don't think that's a nun
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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I am literally ambivalent concerning this subject.
20,000 words of ambivalence. Go Girl, um...Tony...um...DMT?
umm...never mind.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 15, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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OK. I see what is going on.
Now the thread should die.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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oh damned thread! die, i say!
--captain pate-hab
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Starman
Trad climber
Sterling, MA
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Oct 20, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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Hey Lois, here ya go... Y'all were asking about this kind of stuff many many posts ago. Take care -- Steve (Italics mine.)
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69J35X20101020
CERN scientists eye parallel universe breakthrough
By Robert Evans
GENEVA | Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:21am EDT
GENEVA (Reuters) - Physicists probing the origins of the cosmos hope that next year they will turn up the first proofs of the existence of concepts long dear to science-fiction writers such as hidden worlds and extra dimensions.
And as their Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN near Geneva moves into high gear, they are talking increasingly of the "New Physics" on the horizon that could totally change current views of the universe and how it works.
"Parallel universes, unknown forms of matter, extra dimensions... These are not the stuff of cheap science fiction but very concrete physics theories that scientists are trying to confirm with the LHC and other experiments."
This was how the "ideas" men and women in the international research center's Theory Group, which mulls over what could be out there beyond the reach of any telescope, put it in CERN's staff-targeted Bulletin this month.
As particles are collided in the vast underground LHC complex at increasingly high energies, what the Bulletin article referred to informally as the "universe's extra bits" -- if they do exist as predicted -- should be brought into computerized, if ephemeral, view, the theorists say.
Optimism among the hundreds of scientists working at CERN -- in the foothills of the Jura mountains along the border of France and Switzerland -- has grown as the initially troubled $10 billion experiment hit its targets this year.
PROTON COLLISIONS
By mid-October, Director-General Rolf Heuer told staff last weekend, protons were being collided along the 27-km (16.8 mile) subterranean ring at the rate of 5 million a second -- two weeks earlier than the target date for that total.
By next year, collisions will be occurring -- if all continues to go well -- at a rate producing what physicists call one "inverse femtobarn," best described as a colossal amount, of information for analysts to ponder.
The head-on collisions, at all but the speed of light, recreate what happened a tiny fraction of a second after the primeval "Big Bang" 13.7 billion years ago which brought the known universe and everything in it into being.
Despite centuries of increasingly sophisticated observation from planet Earth, only 4 per cent of that universe is known -- because the rest is made up of what have been called, because they are invisible, dark matter and dark energy
Billions of particles flying off from each LHC collision are tracked at four CERN detectors -- and then in collaborating laboratories around the globe -- to establish when and how they come together and what shapes they take.
The CERN theoreticians say this could give clear signs of dimensions beyond length, breadth, depth and time because at such high energy particles could be tracked disappearing -- presumably into them -- and then back into the classical four.
Parallel universes could also be hidden within these dimensions, the thinking goes, but only in a so-called gravitational variety in which light cannot be propagated -- a fact which would make it nearly impossible to explore them.
(Editing by Jonathan Lynn)
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