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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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I don't have a problem with people having guns;I have one myself.
I don't take it to Yosemite because I don't need it. I wouldn't carry it secretly or illegally because I try to obey the law.
How many attempted murders or murders occurred in Yosemite last year? How many strong arm thefts occurred in Yosemite last year? How many occurred in the back country?
How many drownings occurred in Yosemite last year? How many lightening related deaths occurred in Yosemite in the last year?
You don't need a gun in Yosemite you need a life vest.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Last clip of Lichen Lunch
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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If you must die, we can always pelt you with rocks.
Those things are everywhere.
Edit: Then we'll build cairns with them.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:41pm PT
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Ok Paul , I'm with you on all those points, but don't limit your thinking to just the valley.
Although I'm curious about the true crime stats of the valley...Werner? Jesse? care to come clean?
However if I was a California resident and had a Cal. CCW, I might consider it.
Have you stayed in Housekeeping recently? I won't stay there again.
It was like an East LA bario.
Just sayin.
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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paul roehl
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
I don't have a problem with people having guns;I have one myself.
I don't take it to Yosemite because I don't need it. I wouldn't carry it secretly or illegally because I try to obey the law. So uh...you're missing the whole recent "legalization" concept here. It is no longer illegal, nor does it need to be secret. Open carry is legal and it sure as hell ain't a secret that you're carrying. Don't foist your insecurities on others in order to justify depriving them of their rights.
And a second "hit" on your "I try to obey the law" line. Do you smoke pot?
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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" It is no longer illegal, nor does it need to be secret. Open carry is legal and it sure as hell ain't a secret that you're carrying."
I'm not so sure about that Madbolter.
I believe the laws of the state in which the park resides, apply.
So for Yosemite at least, that is not entirely accurate.
For example, generally "open carry", even unloaded, in California is not legal.
Also, technically, a non resident is not allowed to bring a gun into California.
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dogleggs
Social climber
Reading, MA
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Feb 25, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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"Morons" will always find ways to hurt themselves, and others, regardless of whether or not they have access to firearms. The more we try to protect people from themselves, the less likely they are to take responsibility for their own actions and be held accountable. My sport is cycling, I'm a lot more afraid of automobiles than I am of guns. I'm with Ron make it harder to obtain a driver's license if you want to do the most good with legislation.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 25, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Naw, that's bad for "bidness"....They'll just make it harder for stoners to get licenses....And most of the stoners I know are pretty safe drivers.
Can I get a little window dressing over here, please?
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adam d
climber
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Feb 25, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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Shack,
For example, generally "open carry", even unloaded, in California is not legal.
Also, technically, a non resident is not allowed to bring a gun into California.
No...and no. Unloaded open carry is legal most places in California (though debatably not a good idea) and non-residents are allowed to bring guns into California. Even handguns not on the "safe" gun list.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Feb 25, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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Regarding the secret and illegal bit above. Even Werner acknowledged on this thread that he secretly and illegally kept a weapon while in the Park (said lots of others did also).
So even the good guys do secret and illegal things. Big deal.
Paul's main point is still reasonable, and his questions are still legitimate: How many homicides are there in YNP?
The response he got wasn't an answer. Just a reminder that we have rights and a nitpick about his use of the words "secret and illegal."
We all agree that gun ownership is a right. No one is debating that. But as soon as the more interesting and relevant questions come up, the conversation degrades.
Here's a simple, relevant line of questions:
What does the 2nd Amendment term "arms" mean in the context of 21st century military technology? Does it include claymores, magazine-fed automatic weapons, belt-fed automatic weapons, mortars, nuclear weapons? What kind of ammo? Teflon coated? Glass bullets?
What exactly do we have a right to keep and bear?
I've noticed a pretty strong correlation between one's passion for gun ownership and one's fear of honest debate about the issue.
Now I'll sit back, wait for my answer, and enjoy the sound of crickets, possibly to be disturbed by a vague, generic rant about "rights."
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Under the Macabre Roof
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Feb 25, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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an unloaded gun is a fancy stick.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 25, 2010 - 01:07am PT
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Anyone who "needs" to pack a concealed weapon into a National Park is either a coward, stupid and most likely both!
Yeah, that's pretty good description of some of armed rangers who have darkened my campsites over the years (JT in particular). Except their weapons aren't concealed.
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:01am PT
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Shack
Feb 24, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
" It is no longer illegal, nor does it need to be secret. Open carry is legal and it sure as hell ain't a secret that you're carrying."
I'm not so sure about that Madbolter.
I believe the laws of the state in which the park resides, apply.
So for Yosemite at least, that is not entirely accurate.
For example, generally "open carry", even unloaded, in California is not legal.
Also, technically, a non resident is not allowed to bring a gun into California. Sorry Shack, but unloaded OC in CA is legal except in government buildings and school zones. Loaded open carry is legal in many counties and unincorporated areas. It's a bit of a patchwork in places, but the information is readily available. The counties that contain Yosemite, Josh, Death valley all fall into the LOC = A-ok.
Visitors may bring in handguns not on the CA roster (assault weapons are another matter entirely), but they cannot legally bring in magazines over 10 round capacity.
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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adam d
Feb 24, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
A picture of what legal gun possession in YNP looks like.
unloaded guns stored in vehicles, handguns locked.
unloaded open carry, but not in any federal buildings (is the bathroom in Camp 4 a federal building?) Loaded open carry is only allowed in places where the discharge of a weapon is not restricted. In YNP you can't fire a gun so you can not open carry loaded.
Locked, unloaded, concealed carry (in a backpack perhaps) most likely is legal (still vague about the destination requirements, on foot vs vehicle etc)
possibly the campsite exemption will allow for loaded carry in one's own campsite.
CA residents with concealed carry permits can carry loaded and concealed.
Concealed permit holders from all other states are not able to carry concealed legally because California does not recognize any other state's permit.
still no shooting (hunting, plinking etc)
LE continues to do what they want
Anything else to add to this list?
On a practical basis most folks aren't going to notice a difference. Actually there's a great current thread over on calguns.net discussing the legal side of what I highlighted above. It's here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=273182
* also note, there are no destination requirements in a locked, unloaded, concealed scenario. LUCC is legal everywhere in CA (even school zones). Ammo can be in the same case as the gun.
It looks like (in CA), this new law will make loaded open carry legal in Yosemite. Even shooting/plinking is likely now LEGAL in Yosemite.
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adam d
climber
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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Yup, I look at CalGuns too.
I'm skeptical they can get a court ruling that LOC is legal in National Parks in CA. My understanding of the law is that LOC is allowed in unincorporated areas when discharging a weapon is not restricted.
I see nothing that indicates that it will be legal to fire a gun in Yosemite.
Another question...if you have a fishing permit and are fishing in Yos can you legally use that CCW loophole?
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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Read that thread, then come back to the discussion ;)
Here's the crux of the matter why it looks like LOC is legal in the Valley:
First, 111-24 Sec. 512(b) states: "The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System...".
Therefore, by Law, (for Californians, anyway,) the National Park Service is barred from enforcing 36 C.F.R. § 2.4(a)(1)(iii) which is a prohibition on "using" a firearm. If they enforced it, it would trigger the prohibition in PC 12031 (f) and would "prohibit an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System", in areas where it would otherwise be legal. They are barred from enforcing this regulation per 111-24 Sec. 512(b), since doing so, would be a violation of that section of the law.
By their own words folks, (NPS Guidance/Implementation Document) the NPS interprets this wording as meaning "Loaded".
By this logic and reading of the law, LOC is legal in areas where discharge is not otherwise prohibited by State/County Law/Ordinance and the exemption is valid in PC 12031 (f) since the NPS is Barred from enforcing 36 C.F.R. § 2.4(a)(1)(iii) in California by 111-24 Sec. 512(b).
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adam d
climber
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:35am PT
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Are you going to be the test case?
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Madbolter
Big Wall climber
I used to be hard
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Feb 25, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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With the backing of the CalGuns Foundation and lawyer extraordinaire, Alan Gura, being the test case is not as scary as one might think.
Have climbers started to view "being afraid to put yourself on the sharp end" as a virtue? I guess I've been out of the sport too long.
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adam d
climber
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Feb 25, 2010 - 03:04am PT
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So that's a yes? : )
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 25, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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I don't think you need to "break" the law (if the Yos rangers have a different view of what is legal than you do), you merely need to demonstrate that you have an interest in engaging in the prohibited conduct. You can than ask a court for a "declaratory judgment" that the conduct is in fact legal.
The legal system is sometimes absurd but it (usually) isn't so absurd that you are precluded from determining the legality of conduct before engaging therein. The law regarding declaratory judgments can be at least somewhat complex, so the situation may not be as simple as I describe.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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unloaded guns stored in vehicles, handguns locked.
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