Creationists Take Another Called Strike - and run to dugout

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roadman

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 09:56am PT
MH2-"What would you call Helen Keller before Anne Sullivan taught her sign language"?

Helen Keller, definitely a remarkable person, also a Christian. When she was told the Gospel story and about Christ she responded "I know Him, I just didn't know His name". An incredible testimony of God revealing Himself to her. Helen Keller new who she was, and that she was loved by her Creator.

fairy tail! wake up...

what made you this way?
why do you "believe" in this juju mumbojumbo sunday school banter?
roadman

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 10:09am PT
that voice in your head is not god!!!! News flash. it's just you. him telling you to fight for creationist BS is just you..cause he/she is not down with confusion.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints 1 Corinthians 14:33
roadman

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 10:15am PT
reationism stands in opposition to this process of enlightenment, seeking instead to return us to the days when the limits of the inquiring mind were rigidly circumscribed by superstition and dogma. For this reason alone, it deserves to be opposed by all right-thinking people of conscience and principle. The true universe is too vast to fit into any one holy book or religious tradition, and it deserves to be fully investigated so that our descendants may marvel at discoveries even greater than the ones that amazed us. For this reason alone, creationism should and must be opposed wherever it may appear.
roadman

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 10:41am PT
The creationists/IDers are not concerned in the slightest about scientific questions, or about correctly interpreting data, or about forming better explanations and understanding of the natural world.
Instead, creationism/ID is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the fundamentalist Religious Right -- it is a religious and political movement, not a scientific one, and its goals are entirely religious and political, not scientific. The ID/creationists are a part of a larger political movement with radical theocratic aims, and their anti-evolution and anti-science efforts are, as they themselves declare, simply the "wedge issue" which they have chosen in order to gain entry for their wider anti-democratic political goals.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Dec 4, 2009 - 12:18pm PT
roadman!

I don't believe in a religion!

Religion is a man made effort to work his way up to God. Doesn't work. It is a relationship that Christ offers. It is not a crutch that He offers(drugs and boose etc. are crutches). And religion can also be a crutch, or a weekly feel good about yourself shot in the arm for some you could say.

When I was 8 yrs. old and called out "Jesus please help me" from being murdered by an alleged serial killer of young boys(his son and two daughters say he has murdered at least thirty,and they witnessed many of them)he had already told me how he was going to torture me, how my body was going to look when it was found, and "they will think you were run over by a train when they find you". I new little or nothing of "religion".

It was a pure request for help. He filled me with Himself, a peace not of this world, the Prince of Peace. I walked away from that man and his wife and two kids(the boy and one of his sisters) by a supernatural power. THAT was the beginning of a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ, the Creator of this world. Most Christians begin it when they realise they are in need of a Savior and ask Him into thier heart(life).

That has been over 50 years and it is based on faith(obviously I was hoping/believing He could help me)but He has revealed Himself to me close to a dozen times since then(ten or more years have gone by between some of those very personal revelations). But He does so in many ways with all believers sometimes in answered prayer. Read some of Cragmans or the other testimonies on the "Miracle"(forget the title) thread that was recently posted. I do admit my relationship is unusual, but over the years I have heard many experiences similar to mine, from other believers.

But no matter what we testify about, you and other nonbelievers will always come up with an explanation etc. That's why only you can respond when He convicts your heart(maybe He will bring you to your knees) and break that self-centered pride that you are so full of. Or maybe it is bitterness and hate, or just simple unbelief or doubt. I don't know, perhaps your heart is already so hardened that He is finished with you, I hope not.

Religion is guilty of everything you have accused it of, I agree. It is just that you have confused a Person who desires to know you, with a man-made agenda of men, called religion(many "religions" fly the flag of Christianity).

Just look at Him this way for one second. If He is fully God, and He left Heaven to come here and be ridiculed and crucified by His own people(some who knew He was God)and then carry the weight of the worlds sins upon Him and suffer the total wrath of God the Father for you, can He be all that bad? That is a hypothetical question for you of course being an Atheist. Just some food for thought.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Dec 4, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
roadman-"why do you "believe" in this juju mumbojumbo sunday school banter"?

Helen Keller had no knowledge of anything other than her existence let alone any mumbo jumbo juju Sunday school banter!! I suggest you read some of her autobiography or biography.

And as I briefly explained, neither did I. I never attended Sunday school in my life up to that point and for some time after. I did on one or two occasions color in pictures of simple gospel stories in a secular school program that I attended once or perhaps twice when I was 7yrs. old(for 45 min.)at a Catholic church. We were given that option in the 1950's for once a week during the last hour of class. I chose to stay in class most of the time.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Dec 4, 2009 - 01:08pm PT
roadman!

By the way I had little knowledge of who Jesus was before that day I had gone to Catholic church a couple of times when we were living in Canada, but it was all in Latin.

I only recall going one time while I was seven(I turned eight at the end of May, and the encounter with the serial killer happened that summer) the nun gave me a picture of a man with a beard, dressed in a robe with children sitting on His lap. I figured it was Santa(we still have the picture of my sister and me on Santa's lap when I was 5, although by six I new he was a hoax) and proceeded to color in His robe red and His beard white. The nun eventually asked me "Do you know who that man is John" and I said yes Santa, fortunately she briefly told me that it was Jesus and how He loved children. Period. Evidently I gave it some consideration, although I do not remember any except what I did when I was eight.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2009 - 01:32pm PT
777 bro

None of those quotes say any person is thrown in Hell forever.

Since you have a relationship, go within yourself and ask Yeshua if he tosses people in hell forever.

Funny he would forgive sinners when he was on earth where he was obvious and performing miracles and then damn people to hell forever because they failed to believe the testimony of his alleged followers during the present day, particularly considering their behavior often bears little resemblance to the tolerance and love he preached on earth

Peace

Karl
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Dec 4, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
If one does not believe that the non-believers will go to hell forever then there is no real reason to believe. Without being forced into believing, many would not bother because of all of the other crap that goes along with it. For instance, if the church wasn't using extortion on politicians to vote against womens rights by withholding communion, the politicians might not do what the church wants. if there is no leverage of eternal damnation then how would the church get anyone to follow it besides the true believers.

It is in the best interest of the church to maintain the fear of hell in people even if it is not clear in their most important documentation of their religion.

This all makes perfect sense but also shows that the church is run by man and not God and that the bible was written by man and not God and is therefore subject to all of human frailty, even if there is a God.

Dave
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
rectorsquid, VERY well said

I raise my glass to you!
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Dec 4, 2009 - 01:55pm PT
Karl!

All those quotes Jesus made while He was on earth. And there are many more similar. He clearly states the same(and that hell is eternal in the Old Testament and in Revelation as told by the Apostle John("the one He loved"). He is the God of the Old Testament!

When I find the time and the verses I will relate them to you. I read the Bible everyday. Take fifteen minutes or whatever amount of time you choose and take a look what Jesus has to say for yourself. He says it's necessary for spiritual growth!

Peace Bro!

Trip~
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
so, at exactly what moment in human physical evolution did god reach down
and insert a "soul" in to the lucky homo sapiens alive at that time?

Was it about 2000 or so years ago when Adam and Eve were in the Garden?


It is just "too bad" for any humans who lived immediately before the
instant the soul was created in humans?

THEY were doomed to no "life after death" because they had no soul?


We KNOW modern humans were around prior to Adam and Eve, so WHAT DOES
happen to them, they just die and return to dust with no soul and
chance of a shot at heaven? Like a "blind Salamander"?


Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 4, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
You haven't proved me wrong a bit 777, read the book yourself.

Even if there is always a hell, it doesn't mean any person goes there forever

San Quentin is always there, nobody goes forever

As you well know, Jesus interpreted old testament teachings frequently and liberally and if he didn't, you'd be in big trouble for not following the 365 laws of Judaism. He did tell people to follow the law, which Christians don't.

It was Paul who excused Christians from following the law. He argued with the disciples who actually met Jesus in the flesh over whether Christians needed to be circumcised and whether they needed to follow the law. Jesus SPECIFICALLY told people he came for the sake of the Jews alone (but relented a bit when a non-jewish woman begged to eat the spiritual scraps that fell off the table)

People have taken this book, abused it, believed what they want to believe and inflicted it on the world. I say this not to cut down Jesus, who is a spiritual hero, but to defend him.

Peace

karl

edit: Reference: Syrophonecian woman Mark 7:25....
roadman

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
By the way I had little knowledge of who Jesus was before that day I had gone to Catholic church a couple of times when we were living in Canada, but it was all in Latin.

I only recall going one time while I was seven(I turned eight at the end of May, and the encounter with the serial killer happened that summer) the nun gave me a picture of a man with a beard, dressed in a robe with children sitting on His lap. I figured it was Santa(we still have the picture of my sister and me on Santa's lap when I was 5, although by six I new he was a hoax) and proceeded to color in His robe red and His beard white. The nun eventually asked me "Do you know who that man is John" and I said yes Santa, fortunately she briefly told me that it was Jesus and how He loved children. Period. Evidently I gave it some consideration, although I do not remember any except what I did when I was eight.

Dude, you lived in CANADA and moved!!!! I'm working towards moving/working in canada...

but i digress. OK ummm you not into religun (ha ha ah) then why all the bible talk. Don't that kinda get in the way of you talking directly to the "man". especially if youz thinks he just came to you (in your head) and spoke the truth?

Helen may have been an amazing person. But, she could still have a few screws loose, No?

My main passion be it as it may is and always will be keeping god out of the science classroom because it in not the place for it. no more than motor power high speed wenching up the side of el cap belongs in yosemite next to climbers climbing that perfect rock!

Your truth can be whateva, but keep it away from the all to important facts that make up science (k).
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Dec 4, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
rectorsquid-"maintain the fear of hell"!

I haven't heard a pastor give a sermon on hell or eternity in well over 15 years. And these are churches that admit that it is eternal. And I have attended many 'born again/evangelical Christian churches in San Diego, L.A. Las Vegas and Orange Co.(the four places I have lived and worked the last 15+ tears, and the S.F. Bay Area were I finished college (92-95 SJSU). And I watch Christian services on TV several times a week. I truly do not recall the topic being brought up once. It makes people uncomfortable and pastors do not like to make people uncomfortable these days. I have heard hundreds of sermons and attend Wednesday bible studies and it is just not in vogue. Even when I have brought it up with believing friends they become very negative or change the subject although they know it is true.

I find that misfortune, they need more individuals with John the Baptist or Elijah the Prophet's traits. Telling the people the truth. Take a look at what those two individuals had to say about Eternity! Jesus referred to John the Baptist as the greatest/most rigteous man have ever been born up to his time. And spoke likewise of Elijah.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2009 - 02:22pm PT
Elijah, my ass.

I want my question answered:

so, at exactly what moment in human physical evolution did god reach down
and insert a "soul" in to the lucky homo sapiens alive at that time?


We KNOW modern humans were around prior to Adam and Eve, so WHAT DOES
happen to them, they just die and return to dust with no soul and
chance of a shot at heaven? Like a "blind Salamander"?
jstan

climber
Dec 4, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
777:
A small question. You have a special relationship with god and you are urging us to do the same. What happens if god wants to have a special relationship only with you? I have heard few people claiming as you do. So the statistics strongly suggest this question needs an answer.

In that case are you not urging upon us a very grievous disappointment?

Since you do not follow a religion, I would count it a grace if you would not answer my question with a reading from the bible. That's a book based on religion and even politics for that matter. If you have a relationship with god, it is you who has the answer. Not the bible.
TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Dec 4, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
roadman!

I am an occupational therapist OTR/L and have mega amounts of science over the last 20+ years, what your science background is I don't have a clue. I have a BS degree that a Bachelor of Science degree. Over 100 units in Science such as anatomy, physiology, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, kinesiology,physical disability,(multiple classes in these six areas)and numerous psychology, abnormal psychology, and human development classes, and of course physics chemistry biology, etc, etc. And not once was evolution discussed let alone studied. And if you took the time to read what I said about Christian scientist, MD's and health care providers, of which I am one you would understand already our appreciation of science.

I am just fortunate that they hadn't taken God out of the schools(they did teach evolution in science classes then)they gave the option for us to learn about God up until 1962(the year I entered Jr. high school). I agree with you about science. God should be taught in Church and at home and I believe it should be allowed as an option as it was back then in school(it was rarely brought up anyway). As it is know, a student can give a speech on any one or religion including Satanism or witchcraft/the occult, but Jesus is taboo.

As far as Canada is concerned we went back every summer(almost) and my parents moved back in the mid seventies and stayed until the mid 80's(bought a farm house in Cape Breton. All my family/relatives are from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. I wish we never left.

All my uncles were lobster fisherman.I would have inherited a commercial license(the only way you can get one)pasted up many offers. My brother and I were born in Seattle Wa. when my parents came down for 5-6 yrs. to build a couple houses. My father was a carpenter. We still consider our selves Canucks, it is in our blood. Totally different mindset north of the border.

TripL7

Trad climber
'dago
Dec 4, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
Skipt!

Yes, the apostle John wrote the Gospel of John and The Revelation of Jesus Christ(Revelations). John was the only Apostle not to be martyred. The other 11 + Paul were all martyred.

John also wrote three epistles(1 John, 2 John and 3 John. He was the brother of James and was one of the three closest to Jesus along with James and Peter. All three were at the Transfiguration of Christ.

Thanx, Trip~
Bronwyn

Trad climber
Not of This World
Dec 4, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
Isaiah 56:6-8 clearly states God's intention to save all people, not just the Jews. The Temple built by Solomon had a Court of the Gentiles, an area where Gentile, non-Jewish believers in Jehovah (or Yahweh, whatever you prefer) could worship. God stated, "My house shall be a house of prayer FOR ALL THE NATIONS." Not just the Jews. He told Abraham, "Through you ALL NATIONS shall be blessed." Jesus made it plain that He came first for the Jews, as that nation had been selected by God for Him to use as the nation though whom He would produce His son. God made it plain that He did so not because the Jews were "special" but because God loved Abraham, Jacob, David, etc., and made His promise and covenant with them.

The only Law Jesus instructed His disciples to follow was to "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind. And love your neighbor as yourself." (Luke 10:27). He reserved His harshest words for the teachers of the Law: "And you experts in the Law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry," (i.e., those 300-some-odd laws the religious leaders had somehow extrapolated from the Ten Commandments.) Luke 11:46. And again, "Woe to you, experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge." (the key being the love of God in your heart, not the outward trappings of "religiosity.") Luke 11:52. And again: "Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." Luke 20: 46-47.

Rather than urging people to follow the old order of the Law, Jesus proclaimed that He had come to FREE people from the oppression of the Law, that their only religion was to be written on their hearts. The religious leaders of the day killed Him for this very reason...not because He was telling people to follow the Law, but because He condemned it as a milestone around the neck that would drag you under.

The church I attend specifically condemns "religiosity" in all its forms. The message is simple...believe on Jesus, and be saved.
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