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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
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so grossly underestimates what's going on under the hood as to be completely laughable. Hell, they'll be lucky to run a rough model of a one millimeter cube of in-situ neurons with a supercomputers we hope to have in a decade from now and that simulation will probably use enough juice to run the city of Boulder for a couple of days.
yet anyone on the planet can model this within a few ejaculations.
sure it would be cool to hand build one out of plastics.
Man has been building organic ignoramous robots forever.
their called children
They ARE everyone's opportunity of winning at evolution:)
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
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When anything becomes a project, the value of it diminishes greatly (MikeL)
You need to define "value." When I read your statement I am tempted to think you must feel that the creativity and intellectual content of an area of investigation is somehow used up in the early stages, and that what follows is humdrum stuff for the technicians: measurements, calculations, etc.
Are projects that dismal?
In the elementary math I still putter with I have a little "project" that involves theory and computer examples, and at this point there is a conflict. Is my theory faulty? Is the program I wrote faulty? Both perhaps, or only one? Neither is not an option.
This "project" will lead to clarity and insight and will take me "deep" into the quest for knowledge. Notice the word "deep", meaning the revelation of underlying structure and its pleasing consequences and not metaphysical flapdoodle, or the kind of "deep" that discards the intellect in meditative practices. Not that meditation doesn't have its own, and highly valued "deep."
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
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As I mentioned, the problem with this is that awareness is not a thing, so as some have discovered, WHAT we would be writing code on, and how, and what form it would take (a scanning mechanism is not awareness) has so far proved slippery work.
I think Largo refutes that herring—of digitizing our subjective self-awareness, eternal life, all that might be possible—with the above summary statement.
I would add that in the same sense as awareness is not a thing, neither is wonder, awe, love, anger, delight, joy, or sadness. Who would argue against the existence of these (human) attributes? Yet we set many of these attributes aside as "biologically initiated" and that may be so to some extent. We humans need the feedback for survival.
But awareness allows us to override much of our cultural/ethical conditioning. Some might say that any form of overmastering self-awareness might also provide the impetus to overcome cultural conditioning. We all know of cases of this happening, when awareness expanded to allow for paradigm shifts. Given adequate synthesis by the human brain (redirecting thoughts, using new forms of reasoning, advancing the chain of logic, asking effective questions), we know we can switch the synaptic patterns of our brain. Isn't this like breaking a bad habit? (If our synaptic system is out of whack, we will be breaking bad habits to break some of those old thought/judgement/pseudo-reasoning patterns. I, personally, seem to find new synaptic "ruts" every day or so.)
I don't think I can scan a laughing, singing, dancing, sense of humor, curiosity, and adventure identity into a digital archival system. I don't think I can transplant it into a new body. And not just because I am not a brain surgeon. As I think the creation of life is a part of a larger, evolving design of existence, I think that we are each creators, operating with our own spark of motivating creative energy. I am not trying to prove this, but happy that the concept inspires me as I play.
feralfae
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:29pm PT
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As I think the creation of life is a part of a larger, evolving design of existence, I think that we are each creators, operating with our own spark of motivating creative energy. I am not trying to prove this, but happy that the concept inspires me as I play.
make's me happy to play too. So BY effect you've created me.. i've often thought that the utterence of words did in fact create matter,even only if in the brain? God told us to say to that mountain,Move!, and it will. But only if we have faith..(in science?)
But locally, i think Darwin said it second best up-thread, regarding 'natural selection'. Where the environment(You) inspires/causes the organism(Me) in a way to redirect my genome and it's effect on my offspring.
So your not only creating me, but also my future kids
Thank You
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 20, 2015 - 12:28am PT
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Im 3D printing JL's brain right now.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:46am PT
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Thank You
My pleasure. My happy.
Some words help to shift the synaptic routing. So, yes, in effect, that could shift the genome. There has been quite a bit of research done on the synaptic system and how routing occurs. What is most intriguing about the data being generated is that it is an awareness/brain interface that shifts synaptic routing.
When I suggest that you think about lovingkindness, your brain shifts its energetic expressions. I think this fact is now beyond cavil. When I suggest you think about performing a physical task, the suggestion causes changes in synaptic routing which we observe as a shift in energetic expression..
For me, the question has become: What is the entity that is causing the shift in synaptic systems? Is my aware, conscious self the cause, or is it a biologically-inprinted response, or is it both,? If it is both, how do we articulate the elegant synthesis of mind and matter? Well, even if it isn't both.
If the day every comes when humans limit themselves to what can be proved through prediction and observation, we will loose a significant part of our adventuresome, exploring, creative, risking drive. Think wild thoughts of beautiful creativity. See where they might take you. It is how many discoveries are made. I do not think life is meant to be predictable. We were designed as great risk-takers for a reason. I think there is room for science and spirit at the table of life.
And keep on having entirely too much fun.
feralfae
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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Im 3D printing JL's brain right now.
LOL
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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I don't think I can scan a laughing, singing, dancing, sense of humor, curiosity, and adventure identity into a digital archival system.
Ever seen a movie?
Keep asking questions, but if you want to close a door you need a better argument than, "awareness is not a thing."
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 20, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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Werner's a kind of modern fakir - instead of holding one arm in the air so long that birds nest in it, he posts the same thing thousands of times until birds nest in his brain.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 20, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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That wasn't very funny, but it's early yet.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 20, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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It is funny ......
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 20, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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An infant can't run, either, but that ability, too, is an evolved trait I hear.
Given that an infant is basically an undeveloped lump - bad example.
If an infant wasn't genetically programmed to develop the wiring for altruism at some point, you wouldn't be able to teach it jack in the altruism department.
I know some very altruistic people who were reared in very non-altruistic environments. Go figure.
Altruism is observed in many species. We certainly didn't invent it.
The end result - altruistic behaviors, are clearly a combination of nature and nurture.
Hardly a controversial point, really. Pretty much business as usual.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 20, 2015 - 09:45am PT
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We didn't invent it
No we didn't. Like love it must have been sown into the fabric of the universe as an inevitable potential since the first cause or as some now speculate for eternity.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 20, 2015 - 10:09am PT
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That's exactly right, tvash. I remember as long as 15 or 20 years ago now, Montel Williams (remember him?) telling how it was to his audience, studio and world, that "Babies don't inherit prejudice, they learn it - See there!" - pointing to babies of different races playing with each other. But coming off of in-depth schooling in genetics, genetic switching and regulation (a whole subject in itself that instills appreciation of our mechanistic nature) I couldn't help think, Not so fast. What's constantly missed in these discussions concerning morality, selfishness, altruism, love and hate, lust, jealousy, etc. - as you just pointed out that's really so obvious - is that to have any of these traits you first need to have an underlying substrate of some kind to beget them, in other words the machinery or mechanism to run them! Imagine enjoying software without any underlying hardware, lol. Imagine the experience of driving to Yosemite without any underlying vehicle. In the case of Montel that day so long ago, it was clear he hadn't a clue how our genetics work "under the hood" in terms of regulating the body over time. Gene systems evolve and these don't all kick in at once at birth or at age 1 year. Many don't kick in till later, even years later, in development. Obvious examples: puberty, facial hair, etc. Yet it's like all this ends up in people's intellectual blind spots and they completely miss it. Some genetic systems for attraction to the opposite sex, for instance, or for being drawn to beauty; or for flocking together according to feather (relates to prejudice) might not kick in (turn on) till age 10yr or 15yr or 30, depending on species. It's probably different on Vulcan or Romulan. Anyways Montel was out to lunch that day though he convinced millions in his group think. Memory of that object lesson has been with me for 15 years now. It's complicated "under the hood." VERY. People who are mechanically challenged or technologically challenged should be mindful of this and deferential to expertise in these areas of human functioning. Thousands of scientists nowadays are dedicating their entire lives to these complex mechanics - that in itself should be proof that it is extremely complex "under the hood." And yet folks continually underestimate it, if not disregard it, our detailed body mechanics. Often they diss it and often they spend their time - in lieu of learning more about our body mechanics and admiring its truly amazing operation - disrespecting science instead.
Today, personally, I am waiting for a gene system to switch on (or off) so I am just not interested in these science-religion-existentialism- related subjects anymore. It could happen. It might happen.
.....
"Like love it must have been sown into the fabric of the universe as an inevitable potential since the first cause..."
Welcome to the pre-fixed Universe, Paul. You're in good company.
Fully-caused. Fully-ruled. Fully-determined.
Now what will you do with this modern day wisdom? (Thanks in very large measure to modern science.) How might you enhance your life with it?
Don't let it go to waste! :)
Oliver Sacks...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/opinion/oliver-sacks-on-learning-he-has-terminal-cancer.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 20, 2015 - 10:23am PT
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"synaptic routing"
While it's possible to see neuron pathways firing or not based on some conscious thought, such [information] 'routing' requires no conscious impetus at all as it also happens continuously throughout our autonomic nervous system in response to internal and external inputs.
Within the brain, the autonomic nervous system is regulated by the hypothalamus. Autonomic functions include control of respiration, cardiac regulation (the cardiac control center), vasomotor activity (the vasomotor center), and certain reflex actions such as coughing, sneezing, swallowing and vomiting. Those are then subdivided into other areas and are also linked to ANS subsystems and nervous systems external to the brain. The hypothalamus, just above the brain stem, acts as an integrator for autonomic functions, receiving ANS regulatory input from the limbic system to do so.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 20, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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No one does a better job than Steven Pinker in emphasizing the point again and again that to have a trait you first need to have some underlying machinery to evoke it.
The machinery is evolved machinery. Thus the trait is an evolved trait.
Can then "nurturing" or "learning" or "inputs from the environment" - however you prefer to say it - influence the machinery or its "system states" (the traits or their expression)? Of course.
For better or worse. That is the crux of the biscuit.
My love and lust machinery: Inherited. Through my ancestors. Through evolution. My love and lust traits: Inherited and learned. (More or less like a computer, by analogy, yes.)
This reminds me a little of Carl Sagan, Cosmos, where he points out that to make an apple pie you first have to have a universe. :)
"What are we, robots?!!!"
It's all quickly becoming less about the facts and more about attitudes (changing attitudes as part of adapting to new understandings).
The good news of course is that we are a very adaptive species.
The millenials are taking advantage of it.
Signs are everywhere.
.....
Creature discovered!
Invertebrate politicians without backbones...
Scott Walker has no backbone. Where is the courage to accept evolution?
Is this America or the Middle East?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 20, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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Love was sewn into the fabric of the universe the moment it emerged and not a moment before. The potential for it's emergence was there, by definition (it emerged), but this is a rather meaningless after the fact statement of the obvious, as one can claim that the Big Bang had the potential to produce anything we observe now.
That love's emergence was inevitable is just more prophesy nonsense, of course.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 20, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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Several other large animal species take considerably longer to reach sexual maturity. 30 years for a sea turtle, for example. No parental love at all there. Lay 'em and let 'em fend.
Given that social insects and spiders rear and protect their young, parental love has old roots, apparently.
Today, a parent will choose their young over their mate almost every time. Makes perfect evolutionary sense.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 20, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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Can then "nurturing" or "learning" or "inputs from the environment" - however you prefer to say it - influence the machinery or its "system states" (the traits or their expression)? Of course.
Now we're gettin somewhere?
How do you want to describe "influence"?
Did the organism evolve by a pre-determined "influence"?
Or did the influence evolve from the pre-determined organism?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Feb 20, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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If the implication is that love;'s emergence was inevitable is just more prophesy nonsense, of course.
Given the extent of the universe(perhaps infinite)in terms of time, matter and energy all potentials of that construct are inevitable. The proof that altruism, like consciousness, was an inevitable (given the above parameters) potential inherent in the universe's structure is the fact that it (altruism) exists. What did love, altruism empathy emerge from if not the structure of the universe itself? Surely not from woo woo!
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