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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
Surely you have read the verse in the Bible quoting God as saying that He created hell(The Lake of Fire) for only Satan and his angels. Long before He even created man.
There are only two places to spend eternity, Heaven and Hell.
God was very sad at the fact that many would choose to spend their eternity not with Him.
FWIW, there are different levels of hell evidently.
And I am not being hard on God. He is Holy and Righteous. I don't know what decisions Ronnie had made at an early age(as I had at age eight). No one would have guessed that I was a Christian during certain periods of my life. Or what the outcome would have been if the subject came up the weekend I stayed at his place. Nothing became of it with any of the other 4-5 friends of ours back then that I did talk with(but they are still alive). The one thing that I did eventually come to understand(and what God was showing me afterwards) is that there may be no tomorrow to do what can be done today.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dude, if you believe that in the beginning was only God, then everything comes from God and God is responsible for all.
God is not evident to all but mystics in this world so the idea that he's sending people to suffer for eternity for choosing against an entity they have no sense of is the worst blasphemy.
Show me in the bible where it clearly says people go to hell forever for not believing your particular interpretation of salvation.
Give up evil ideas about God, who is perfect love, and whom all would Love if they could experience. Ideas like, "God hides himself from the world, then gives us free choice to believe in him without evidence, but if we choose not to have blind faith, then he makes us suffer for eternity" That's not a choice. It's like saying, you don't have to marry me but if you don't I'm gonna skin you alive (which is light compared to eternity in hell.
Hitler was far less a tyrant than what you propose.
There is little evidence in the Bible for such a doctrine, which would be pretty damn important for God's book to spell out if true. Don't believe everything that's the modern cultural religious or Pauline interpretation of things. Missionaries cook up fear to make conversion simple, Do or fry forever. You know better within
peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Karl just got post #3,666. Be very afraid.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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jstan-"but how did they know it was the god written about in the bible"?
If some one you new knocked at your door, came in and sat down and spent some time there with you, you would have no doubt who it was, safe to say. All I can say is the Creator of this vast universe has the same ability to do just that, in Spirit. There is never any question of His presence. Its something that I do not have the words to explain. Another thing I can asure you of is that I have very little faith. I won't bore you with any examples of it.
It is a personal relationship, believe me.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Karl just got post #3,666. Be very afraid."
God's been playing a Job thing with me lately. So far I can take it!
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
Who do you believe Jesus is? He spoke more of hell than He spoke of Heaven.
Read about Lazarus and the rich man(Luke 16:20-25! Jesus told this story.
I go specifically by what Jesus teaches in the New Testament, and there are many more examples.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Bro, in that story note a couple things.
Never says that the rich man goes to Hell forever.
also Jesus never recommends in that passage that belief in him is required but suggests good works and following the law of Moses and the Prophets.
So in such you are believing what you want to believe, because I'm sure you aren't following the law of moses
It's good to study the whole context and history of the Bible to get a sense of wassup with it. People are always praying in Jesus name but his disciples and followers never, ever, called him "Jesus" and he didn't call himself "Jesus". It's a Greek name. That would be like calling me "Charles" and referencing me like that for 2000 years. We make these assumptions but they are concocted by stringing together unclear verses that we don't really believe.
Earlier in Luke, divorce and remarriage are explicitly prohibited. Where do you stand on that?
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"Dude, if you believe in the beginning was only God..."
I like that paraphrase Karl! And I do believe it. And that is why I take everything Jesus says in the four Gospels very seriously, including what He says about hell and eternity.
It's from John 1 and goes like this "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him...'John 1-3 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth". John 1-14.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Again, since this is the most important question of peoples existence and, according to you, Jesus came to save people, show me where Jesus spells out the Christian doctrine that everybody who doesn't accept Jesus as personal saviour suffers for eternity, cause the passage you cited above DIRECTLY contradicts it and recommends works and following the law. You'd think that if God were sending people to suffer for trillions of years, and sent Jesus to save them from that, he's be talking about it plainly and a lot.
and it doesn't say people go to hell forever. Even if hell exists forever, it never says people go there forever.
PEace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
Believe me, over the past forty years I have read through the Old Testament many times, and prefer studying the Old Testament more than the new. I know I have read the New Testament through at least ten times. It would be difficult to understand the New Testament fully without thorough knowledge of the Old Testament. It is one continuous story from Genesis to Revelation. But just as important is the studying of both. I have done everything from word studies, to verse studies, to chapter and book studies. There is also memorisation and meditation on different verses that is essential. Daily reading of the scripture is as, or more important than the food we eat, to stay healthy spiritually. He is the Living Word. It is how He speaks to us(primarily how).
But the New Testament is a new dispensation, the dispensation of grace. Not of of the law or works that God clearly showed man that they could not succeed(they continuously failed in the Old Testament). "It is by grace that you are saved, not of works". Jesus did away with the old and brought in the new, His sacrifice on the cross completed that. We are expected to do good works and keep the commandments after we are saved because we are to imitate Him.
Jesus clearly states many times and in many ways that "I am the only way to the Father"(to Heaven). He tells Nicodemus "you must be born again".
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
"To live once than the Judgement". It is eternal "forever and ever"!
"Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me shall have eternal life" John 6:47.
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood, has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day". Jesus was talking figuratively(He is the bread of life) Eats of this bread is synonym for faith. We get nourishment from bread or food to sustain us each day(obviously, or we would eventually starve to death). He is the Bread of eternal life.
These are just a couple verses from one chapter. There are hundreds of them.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl-"The passage you sited above DIRECTLY contradicts it recommends works and following the law".
What passage Karl??? I said to read the story of Nicodemus and John 1:1-3,14. They say nothing of the such!!
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MH2
climber
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roadman,
In respect to your quite sensible reccomendations on the use of antibiotics; we are royally screwed. Even the one little nursing home I work at has great prospects for creating drug-resistant bacteria all by itself, and if we try to add up how many nursing homes there are, etc., yikes! And there are hospitals, and the public going to their family doc.
Earlier I was tempted to transform the quote attributed to J.B.S. Haldane, that we can infer from the evidence of Creation that the Creator was fond of beetles, into Him being fond of bacteria. The number of beetle species is estimated in the hundreds of thousands. If you try to find how many different kinds of bacteria there are on the planet, the current answer appears to be: too many to count.
A moderately good discussion of the problem:
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10234.full
Another source said that estimates of the different kinds of bacteria range from 100 million to 10 billion, but "could be off by several orders of magnitude."
Not too many years ago bacteria were thought to be significant to humans mainly as potential pathogens. Not any longer. It seems that what they are up to isn't clear, yet, but it would be good if we could find out more, and try to be sure we can live in harmony with the planet's dominant life form.
Other Haldane quotes:
"My own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms."
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
In the story of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus was telling a story about two individuals that lived in Old Testament times! Jesus had not yet died for Humanity or paid the price of there sins.
There are abundant verses in the New Testament were Jesus confirms that He is the only way. The old testament people were judged by keeping the law and good works and belief in Jehovah Jireh, yes. There was nothing wrong with being rich, but in the story evidently the rich mans riches were the center of his life etc.
Jesus name is pronounced Yeshua in Aramaic. Jesus in Greek. He knows who we are referring to.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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MH2!
I just wanted to mention(noticed you worked in a nursing home)that my father was in a nursing home for 18 months before he died(1991). I was there ever other day for about two hours to help with care, as were my mother and brother on opposite days. I went back to college(already had 3+ years)graduated in '95 and majored in occupational therapy OTR/L. And have worked in a number of nursing homes and hospitals since. Strep(especially the penn./antibiotic resistant variety) is hideous! I haven't fooled yours and roadman's discussion tonight. I was just saying.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
He has many names in the Bible; Prince of Peace, Lion of Judah, Yeshuah(Joshuah)Emanuel etc, etc.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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Karl!
"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him" Luke 12:4-5. That is Jesus/Yeshua speaking of Himself.
"who confesses Me before men, him the Son Of Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God". Luke 12:8-9.
"He rebuked their disbelief and hardness of heart because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptised will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" Mark 16:14-17.
"How can you escape the condemnation of hell".Mathew 23:33.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he does not believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God". John 3:18.
I am looking at my Strong's Concordance and there are many more, close to fifty in the 4 Gospels alone. But it is after 3am...goodnight.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago
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MH2-"What would you call Helen Keller before Anne Sullivan taught her sign language"?
Helen Keller, definitely a remarkable person, also a Christian. When she was told the Gospel story and about Christ she responded "I know Him, I just didn't know His name". An incredible testimony of God revealing Himself to her. Helen Keller new who she was, and that she was loved by her Creator.
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roadman
climber
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roadman,
In respect to your quite sensible reccomendations on the use of antibiotics; we are royally screwed. Even the one little nursing home I work at has great prospects for creating drug-resistant bacteria all by itself, and if we try to add up how many nursing homes there are, etc., yikes! And there are hospitals, and the public going to their family doc.
Earlier I was tempted to transform the quote attributed to J.B.S. Haldane, that we can infer from the evidence of Creation that the Creator was fond of beetles, into Him being fond of bacteria. The number of beetle species is estimated in the hundreds of thousands. If you try to find how many different kinds of bacteria there are on the planet, the current answer appears to be: too many to count.
A moderately good discussion of the problem:
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10234.full
Another source said that estimates of the different kinds of bacteria range from 100 million to 10 billion, but "could be off by several orders of magnitude."
Not too many years ago bacteria were thought to be significant to humans mainly as potential pathogens. Not any longer. It seems that what they are up to isn't clear, yet, but it would be good if we could find out more, and try to be sure we can live in harmony with the planet's dominant life form.
We are not screwed. Because we have evolutionary biologists to save us. Funny you look at PNAS, have you published there?
Nursing home work must be hard!!!! CNA, LPN, RN? I can see why you have to believe so strongly in GOD...
While you're surfing PNAS check out some of the cool active research is going on in evolution. Not just human related. THe genetic tools are making it really cool right now. A lot of those papers are a bit to dry for mud throwing types;-)
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roadman
climber
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Only the weak need a god to believe in. Grow up. pick a better fairy tail
Suggestions:
The princes bride
robinhood
waterworld
snow white
What a shame that intelligent people need the crutch that is GOD
worse yet...they feel the need to poison the well of fact based knowledge for others.
fact. yes thats a 4 letter word to you religious folks. except for the 1.2 billion catholics!!!
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