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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
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I reckon I've got a bit more faith in Homo sapiens continued survival, despite my musings about the robot apocalypse. Predictions of our demise have proven greatly exaggerated in the past. It's not that hard to kill a lot of us, but it appears to be very difficult to kill all of us. Alien invasion notwithstanding, of course.
Humans have proven to be adaptable to even the harshest environments - without the benefit of modern technology, even.
We don't pursue wealth as a prime directive. We pursue meaning. Some pursue wealth as a proxy for meaning is all.
Would you sell what you deeply believe in for a million dollars? Ruin a wilderness? Own a slave? Kill someone?
I know many people who could be making many times more than they do now doing corporate instead of public advocacy work - they choose not to. Sure, there are pure money grubbers and bottom feeders out there, but I choose to believe there's more to us than that based on my observations.
One hopeful trend - the younger generations are not as hung up on displaying the larger ticket trappings of wealth - cars, homes, etc, as their predecessors. Status is arguably just as important to them, but how that status is gauged is changing rapidly.
They are also not as enamored with our generation's cherished mythology - religion, partisanship, patriotism, uncontrolled spending, perpetual war making, a failed Drug War, our fetishist focus on individual sexuality - our'can't do that' mentality in general.
They see the shitehole we've not-so-lovingly prepared for them and question everything, as they damn well should.
Could this be the dawning of the age of connected (as opposed to selfish) individualism?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 12:54pm PT
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Base: NO NO NO! Science doesn't promise anything.
When it becomes a project, it must. It can’t become a project unless it does so in this world. Projects are promises.
If you think that pure science (the love and curiosity of knowledge?) does not promise anything, then I submit the same can be held for religion, for art, for recreation.
When anything becomes a project, the value of it diminishes greatly. (I might say it evaporates.)
DMT:
Read a journal article with a lit review, theory or hypotheses section, a method section, a findings section, and a discussion section.
Perhaps you think of science casually or intuitively. Those of us who do research and report it might describe it as an arcane ballet of sorts. If it doesn’t have specificity, it’s not very good or well-respected.
(Pretty good post, Tvash.)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
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Both greed and altruism are evolved traits - highly modifiable by environment, of course. If altruism wasn't an evolved trait, no amount of parenting would instill it in a child.
I'm more of a local control kind of guy so I don't see a one world government as either necessary nor desirable. It's bad enough having some cracker from Alabama dictate what I can and cannot do from 3000 miles away. I don't want to make that 10,000 miles and an entirely different culture.
Arguably, the healthier individual values are, the less government is needed.
If it's an enforcement issue, we're doing something terribly wrong.
The best strategy I've seen is to employ science to study the problem and indicate the most effective remedies. In this world public health and education, social justice, research, and environmental health become the top priorities over state security and wealth building.
We've been tracking in that direction recently. Military spending is down, our current wars are ending, and the social welfare is becoming a hot topic.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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Science is like this. It too is a project that promises general welfare. But it too has problems, limitations, and weaknesses. Rather than focusing on what science produces (technical understandings), it can also be useful to learn about how science gets done in fields, what its claims are as a way of knowing, and what it is ill-suited for. No aspect of science is a 'project'.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 03:20pm PT
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We could get there in a hundred years
I don't think I'm this optimistic. My bet is that we might get there only after several high-drama epochal cycles (incl enormous population collapses).
"Look at a gallon of gas. You can hold it in a jug. It weighs less than 8 lbs. Using gasoline you can move at least a ton of automobile up to 50 miles. It is THE incredibly dense source of energy, and I think that it has had an overwhelming effect on human behavior and business. We are running out in a few decades, or at least the cheap oil."
This should be taught in every public school beginning in the first grade. But no. (Is it because our educators graduate from liberal arts colleges instead of science and technology colleges?)
Remember a few years back, we had all those Peak Oil threads and folks were calling us "alarmist" left and right? lol!
.....
Sorry that I am always so gloomy...
The underbelly of nature is gloomy.
We need to cut the population in half...
Yeah, tell that to the Duggars (America celebrates their accomplishment, read the media) and to the bin Ladens.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
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Both greed and altruism are evolved traits
I thought you just posted altruism is a learned trait.
Which is it? lol
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Oh, re: altruism, sorry, that was tvash. :)
I'm more of a local control kind of guy...
That's cool.
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Heads up: Sam Harris, tomorrow, appearing once again on the very bad wizards podcast... to once discuss our robotic nature and... "free will."
The last one, episode 59, was pretty good and very popular. So this is round 2 apparently.
http://verybadwizards.com/episode-list/
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Feb 19, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
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'Thinning the Herd'
If it's culling we need as a species, the probability that an alien race is not a benevolent one might prove to our advantage. In regards to science, it's the double edge sword; in the one hand it's too hot handle and in the other hand it's a gift we don't know what to do with either.
But try using only your mind to post on this thread and tell us about the results. 99% of the world we live in today, at least the human stuff that we use to live, is a direct result of investment, scientific research, engineering, marketing, and consumerism.
Without all that I certainly would be unable to post here.
I'm done with all my posts for now and will disappear naked into the ocean. At least that's what I tell my better half when married bliss ain't so blissful. Look at me all grown at 57 with an 11 year old mentality, grandkids in tow.
Them I can relate to.
“Get out of here, you low-life scum,” the grizzled 78-year-old Arizona Republican told a group of anti-war demonstrators calling themselves “Code Pink.”
"Hey you diseased old hawk f¥€k, those are my kids you're talking to,"
I thought, war hero notwithstanding.
These are my parting words;
Of what I know about the meaning of existence?
Life is short and then we die. Love is all that matters in the end, be kind, try to have as much fun in the meantime.
Work is over rated.
But money is nice.
Sex too, ha ha!
Be careful with that one...
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
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The manifestation of inherited traits is often profoundly affected by environment - particularly during gestation.
So, yeah, altruism is both an evolved and nurtured behavior.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 19, 2015 - 06:53pm PT
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Evolution isn't just ruthless. It's everything we are, by definition - ruthlessness, altruism, cooperation, competition, selfishness, and selflessness.
The term Evolution is confusing. On the hand it describes Man's climb from the lava pits. The whole material body morphing into another upgraded, more environmentally friendly body. And that seems all good as far as the passing of genes.But on the other hand, the stuff ur pointing at. Are they written on meat in the DNA? Are you really saying that i'm selfish because my body tells me i am?
WE've discussed this before; Evolution = genomes + environment = organism?
^^that wasn't very good phrasing. Let us rap down.
Natural selection is the gradual process by which heritable biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment. It is a key mechanism of evolution. The term "natural selection" was popularised by Charles Darwin, who intended it to be compared with artificial selection, now more commonly referred to as selective breeding.
Variation exists within all populations of organisms. This occurs partly because random mutations arise in the genome of an individual organism, and these mutations can be passed to offspring. Throughout the individuals’ lives, their genomes interact with their environments to cause variations in traits. (The environment of a genome includes the molecular biology in the cell, other cells, other individuals, populations, species, as well as the abiotic environment.) Individuals with certain variants of the trait may survive and reproduce more than individuals with other, less successful, variants. Therefore the population evolves. Factors that affect reproductive success are also important, an issue that Charles Darwin developed in his ideas on sexual selection, for example.
Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, but the genetic (heritable) basis of any phenotype that gives a reproductive advantage may become more common in a population (see allele frequency). Over time, this process can result in populations that specialise for particular ecological niches and may eventually result in the emergence of new species. In other words, natural selection is an important process (though not the only process) by which evolution takes place within a population of organisms. Natural selection can be contrasted with artificial selection, in which humans intentionally choose specific traits (although they may not always get what they want). In natural selection there is no intentional choice. In other words, artificial selection is teleological and natural selection is not teleological.
Natural selection is one of the cornerstones of modern biology. The term was introduced by Darwin in his influential 1859 book On the Origin of Species,[1] in which natural selection was described as analogous to artificial selection, a process by which animals and plants with traits considered desirable by human breeders are systematically favoured for reproduction. The concept of natural selection was originally developed in the absence of a valid theory of heredity; at the time of Darwin's writing, nothing was known of modern genetics. The union of traditional Darwinian evolution with subsequent discoveries in classical and molecular genetics is termed the modern evolutionary synthesis. Natural selection remains the primary explanation for adaptive evolution.
WiKi
"Natural selection is the gradual process by which heritable biological traits become either more or less common in a population as a function of the effect of inherited traits on the differential reproductive success of organisms interacting with their environment."
isn't this saying, environment dictates which genes shall stay or go?
"Variation exists within all populations of organisms. This occurs partly because random mutations arise in the genome of an individual organism, and these mutations can be passed to offspring. Throughout the individuals’ lives, their genomes interact with their environments to cause variations in traits.
"Random mutations"? Is this where science coined, Life happens by Chance, and it is NOT determined? their genomes interact with their environments to cause variations in traits. "
Again, What ever you are born as, the environment will predict ur offspring. Although your motivation can curve this line..?
"Natural selection acts on the phenotype, or the observable characteristics of an organism, but the genetic (heritable) basis of any phenotype that gives a reproductive advantage may become more common in a population"
maybe in a closed society? jus look at the Chinese.
"Natural selection is one of the cornerstones of modern biology. The term was introduced by Darwin in his influential 1859 book On the Origin of Species,[1] in which natural selection was described as analogous to artificial selection, a process by which animals and plants with traits considered desirable by human breeders are systematically favoured for reproduction."
and since 1859 scientist have been trying to rid natural selection..
Today there are scientist saying Nature WILL NOT continue without the help of Man's intellect. These are the same one's calling for de-populization. And the blotting out of so-called myths, like the bible. Next will be the random mutations. And the risk of chance, thats gotta go! Then science would much better be able to predict what a Man should be
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
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What of merging man with machine, aka, Transhumanism?
Bleh. Such scifi always underestimates what the post-op infection and rejection rates would be not to mention that multiple operations would just up the rates along with the fact any such high volume surgicenters and instruments themselves would be a nightmare to keep sterile.
FDA warns about medical scopes after ‘superbug’ hits California hospital
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
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t may be more of a hormonal thing for men, based on physical attractiveness but I can assure you that women on the average put some thought into who they fall in love with
You got nothing on the females of a lot of species - human females are fairly promiscuous by comparison.
Hey I was responding to healeyje who said it was all hormonal (go back and look at his diagram). If you want to argue that he was wrong, argue with him.
I didn't say it was "all hormonal", I was saying there is a completely rational biological basis for mating and - once again - that old Victorian anthropocentric arrogance absolutely HATES any assertion or recognition we are just another animal (with nothing all that special or terribly unique about our mating habits).
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 19, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
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all were in agreement about the issue of free will. They all agreed that free will does not exist in the classical sense."
what's classic about it?
written history shows that the notion of free-will was handed down to us from Abraham's Father.
Before that???
So even if the "environment"/God invoked free-will, it HAS become a part of our genome.
These guys are jus turning you into a prehistoric caveman
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
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(with nothing all that special or terribly unique about our mating habits).
you must be single too
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
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"Uploading of our consciousness into a virtual reality. If we could scan the synaptic matrix of a human brain and simulate it on a computer then it would be possible for us to migrate from our biological embodiments to a purely digital substrate (given certain philosophical assumptions about the nature of consciousness and personal identity). By making sure we always had back-up copies, we might then enjoy effectively unlimited life-spans. By directing the activation flow in the simulated neural networks, we could engineer totally new types of experience. Uploading, in this sense, would probably require mature nanotechnology. But there are less extreme ways of fusing the human mind with computers. Work is being done today on developing neuro/chip interfaces. The technology is still in its early stages; but it might one day enable us to build neuroprostheses whereby we could "plug in" to cyberspace. Even less speculative are various schemes for immersive virtual reality - for instance using head-mounted displays - that communicate with the brain via our natural sense organs."
Not the use of the word, "who," and "we" in the above quote, as well at "mind" and "consciousness." Of course what is being described is not mind or consciousness at all, but objective functioning that in not way results in self-awareness of the "digital substrate." If you insist that said awareness is "what" the digital substrate does, then conscious awareness - NOT qualia, or the content of consciousness - would have to rendered into digital code to do the doing.
As I mentioned, the problem with this is that awareness is not a thing, so as some have discovered, WHAT we would be writing code on, and how, and what form it would take (a scanning mechanism is not awareness) has so far proved slippery work.
JL
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:48pm PT
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^^^ yeAH
some around here think that when a calculator spits out a 4 from their 2+2=, that THAT is awareness!?
If you insist that said awareness is "what" the digital substrate does, then conscious awareness - NOT qualia, or the content of consciousness - would have to rendered into digital code to do the doing.
how about a digital code for dreaming? or inspiration, or guessing, or chance
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
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"Uploading of our consciousness into a virtual reality. If we could scan the synaptic matrix of a human brain and simulate it on a computer then it would be possible for us to migrate from our biological embodiments to a purely digital substrate (given certain philosophical assumptions about the nature of consciousness and personal identity).
Scifi techno-gibberish - ain't gonna happen. And the very idea that a 'simulation' of our brain's "synaptic matrix" could be built or would accurately model the complexity and nuances of what goes on in your noggin at any level - from the synaptic gap on up to various macro neurological structures let alone the gene expression orchestration that runs the whole thing - so grossly underestimates what's going on under the hood as to be completely laughable. Hell, they'll be lucky to run a rough model of a one millimeter cube of in-situ neurons with supercomputers we hope to have in a decade from now and that simulation will probably use enough juice to run the city of Boulder for a couple of days.
As a someone with a bio background who ended up in software engineering, I can assure you there is no shortage of tech folks who don't have clue one about what the f*#k they're talking about when they pop off in this manner (and generally they're selling something when they do). It's the techno version of the Victorian Anthropocentric Arrogance Syndrome (VAAS) where the inherent complexity of biological systems is simply ignored with hand waves because you can't let reality intrude on a good story or pitch.
Again, you should really try to avoid the computer thing, especially such claptrap as the above, however entertaining.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
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"the very idea that a 'simulation' of our brain's "synaptic matrix" could be built or would accurately model the complexity and nuances of what goes on in your noggin at any level - from the synaptic gap on up to various macro neurological structures let alone the gene expression orchestration that runs the whole thing - so grossly underestimates what's going on under the hood as to be completely laughable." -healyje
Couldn't agree more.
.....
The problem is we've reached a point in our development where we need to speciate. But we can't because were limited now, despite its enormous size, to just one venue.
Where's that wormhole when you need it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
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Joe Sixpack will be privileged to this technology with it's "unlimited life-spans".
well, maybe in II more he'll catch up 2 u. me?
jus josh'n sitt'in here in Josh.
Seriously though,
what's the deal with you and implants??
myself, i can't wait to get the iTooth! no more carrying this damn thing around. Jus open ur mouth and shot a pic! or talk on the phone. WiKi spews outta ur mouth to a hallagram on the wall. When you you kiss you could exchange facebook pages?
cool stuff man! don't be a hater
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:28pm PT
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awareness is not a thing
True. It is many things.
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