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WBraun
climber
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Your mind is rusted, clogged and shut down.
The mind must be completely free from rust.
The gross materialists mind machines all become old and rusted.
The eternal lubrication of Ultimate Truth keeps the mind healthy and working free from all material rust ......
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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This is fantasy. No science supports this.
Interesting.. i didn't understand Freewill was such a glitch for you. i mean Sam. i'll have to check that out.
Meanwhile, show me the science that shows me you know how to read. i think you can, but how about some proof by one of ur measuring devices that can peer into someones mind and say yay or nay. Or how about if someones funny or not. Can you?
Or does the idea of freewill blow the whole evolution thing out of the water?
Does your Survival of The Fittest, deflate? Maybe it was Freewill that drove those polliwogs out of the water 4 billion yrs ago?
Don't you atleast think it's your own Freewill to come on here and spew ur hate on everyone?
Namaste Senior Polliwog
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2014 - 02:24am PT
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Largo: ...carefully observe...
There it is again...
ob·serve - əbˈzərv - verb: observe; 3rd person present: observes; past tense: observed; past participle:
observed; gerund or present participle: observing
Not terribly no-mindish. Or is that a matter of reflecting back on one's earlier no-mind 'experience'?
Maybe it's [still quite verb-ishly] like becoming one of those hidden babysitter cams? If so, then the question
is: were you unno-mindishly observing your no-minding in realtime or mindfully playing back your
no-mind (null-qual?) recording later? (Inquiring minds and all...)
...being there in the here and now.
And so here we are, thousands of posts later, on yet another loop around the track, and we're still doing
no better than basic Ram Dassian bromides.
That is the challenge to the programmers. Nail that down in code.
Pretty simple really. Turn on your computer or wake it up from sleep or hibernation mode and then simply run
no [devilishly discursive] application code whatsoever - and there you go: a 'no mind' (no code nailing
required). The computer is on (the material corpus is up and humming), firmware / drivers / OS are
all doing their thing (autonomic nervous system and subconscious), and the 'mind' is
pristinely clear (and waiting [for what?]). Damned if all the poor little bugger needs now is the ability
to [statefully and contextually] know what it should do next and why. But, as it is...
Not written by my iPhone
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2014 - 03:28am PT
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Werner: ...Ultimate Truth...
I could have sworn Time Bandits covered that fairly definitively as in, "the most ultimate truth in the world".
Wait, doggone it, no, that wasn't it. Was it? No. That's right - now I remember - it was about that other fabulousness...
[ P.S. God: "Now I want every bit of Truth...placed in here - right away. And be very careful with that. It's concentrated truth." ]
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:27am PT
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Can I just point out Largo, that there is this little field or discipline out there called Artificial Intelligence. Lot's of brilliant minds work in this field and I'm sure there must be many university curriculums that offer this as a program. There have been many books written on the subject. There is a lot of knowledge bases out there other than your Cal Tech friends.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2014 - 09:06am PT
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AI has branched and proliferated over the past forty years into many allied areas under that now broad umbrella. There has also been a lot of cross-fertilization with biology and physics.
We were working on predicting cotton pick dates back in '85 when I was at DEC's R&D labs which turns out to be a tough problem (they're still working on it). Lots of folks have been working on all kinds of things over that period developing ever more sophisticated algorithms and approaches along the way. But none of it is anywhere remotely close to even the fringes of any form of sentience.
In my opinion it's just not a programmable attribute, but rather can only approached as an emergent property in any system whether biological or synthetic. The issue there is evolution has a couple of billion year head start, iteratively speaking, on the biological side. It's a bit naive and arrogant to think we can duplicate that synthetically in a few decades...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 10, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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Sure, AI is a bigger umbrella than sentience, but, c'mon, one of the ultimate goals of AI is to mimic, as closely as possible, human agency. Think Turing machine. Must be thousands of science fictions books with this as a theme.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 10, 2014 - 10:19am PT
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2060 or so, by latest back-of-the-envelope analysis.
Human consciousness emerges from a dynamic, analog system with a trillion connections. That'll take a few decades to synthesize in toto, but the basic processes of optimization, memory, association, mapping, imaging - we use all of these basic processes every time we google something today.
That consciousness is some uncrackable mystery is BS proffered primarily by people who remain unfamiliar with the workings of the technologies they themselves use to proffer that very argument. Not much different than Christians arguing against evolution via Twitter, really.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 10, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Great cartoon!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 10, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
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The sun will never rise in the west.
The sun doesn't rise. The Earth is spinning.
The fact that the Earth is simply spinning, while orbiting the sun, is a fact that all of the faith, religion, and spiritism in the world never did and never COULD provide.
Smoke that one.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 10, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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Base, whats ur opinion on FreeWill?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 10, 2014 - 02:49pm PT
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More importantly, what is your opinion on Free Willy?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 10, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
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Free will is a sophisticated form of adaptation. Plants grow towards the sun - and sometimes into a walkway, where they are subsequently cut down. Similarly, humans act to optimize various needs (and the feelings of well-being from the perception that those needs are being met). Perception is fallible, situations are misjudged, the equipment seldom works perfectly, and some needs are ultimately self destructive.
Hijinks ensue.
I wonder if everything we do - including creative pursuits, could happen without self (conscious) awareness? An entire species, going about its business, in a black out. Would the results be roughly the same, or somehow fundamentally different? It would seem that, if awareness is simply getting the memo after the fact - as it certainly seems to be, or must be, given the lack of a woo layer - conscious awareness is expendable.
BUT - conscious awareness exists, and therefore must have had an evolutionary benefit at some critical juncture. That would indicate that our world is, indeed, different from the one we'd make if our subconscious decision engines were truly doing everything.
Still...I can't figure out exactly what roll conscious awareness plays in all of this. Perhaps some feelings require conscious awareness to be, well, felt?
And perhaps a 'conscious Turing machine' could be created - one that is not self aware - but performs all the duties of a self aware person to the degree that the two are indistinguishable.
Or, perhaps, inventing a self eating watermelon would be a more productive enterprise than this speculation.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 10, 2014 - 03:37pm PT
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Base, whats ur opinion on FreeWill?
We have free will. Anyone who says otherwise has the free will to say it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 10, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
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I wonder if everything we do - including creative pursuits, could happen without self (conscious) awareness?
My dog is consciously aware. But not very creative.
I'm Start'in to think there wouldn't be Art or creativity without FreeWill!
Without freewill we would be a society like the worker ants. We wouldn't even try to be independent. It would be like an intense form of communism. We would be Robotish.
Awareness, Pffttt, what kind of awareness do you want? They got cars that park themselves. That kind?
I'd like to see a robot with some FreeWill programmed in it.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jul 10, 2014 - 04:11pm PT
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The evolution of the eye was the evolution of the I.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jul 10, 2014 - 06:53pm PT
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Your mind is rusted, clogged and shut down (Duck)
Sometimes it sure feels that way at 77.
I wonder if everything we do - including creative pursuits, could happen without self (conscious) awareness? (Tvash)
I mentioned some time back that it might be a mistake to expend all that energy on achieving artificial self-awareness or sentience. Just create robots or computers that can do what we would like them to do, minus the dreadful "I", which some of us exert great effort attempting to flee. Should we burden those mechanical slaves with consciousness?
The atmosphere seems to have become more civil on this thread.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 10, 2014 - 08:18pm PT
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2 through 3.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jul 10, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
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5) represents Golden Opportunity for Great Knowledge.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 10, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
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Prolly soon you'll be able to ask the car.
"Car, are you for me?"
And she'll be able to reply,"Well Mr.blueblocr, i can read that chip in your pocket and i can see i'm not in your price range"
Or "Yes i could be, i get 50mpg with 4 on the floor and bucket seats. Would you like to take me home tonight?"
But if she's got freewill she might not let my dog get in...
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