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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:14am PT
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speaking of raging hormones, that damn flicker is back. where's my pellet gun?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:34am PT
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"One night stands fall in the realm of chemistry usually (hormones, time within the monthly cycle + alcohol)" -Jan
Continuing the thought...
And if pregnancy occurs, no worries, even if I don't have my true love selected yet.
Because I have the gov to go after that one-night stand and make him pay. Then when I do get my selected man, my REAL TRUE LOVE, I'll have a two-fer.
Evolutionary strategy at its finest.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:39am PT
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She makes sweeping generalizations about male love
just
like
a woman
but she blames in on a man
just like
a
little
girrrrrllll
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:40am PT
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I think that there's just a very fundamental conflict or tension between why we have our beliefs and why we believe our beliefs are true.
I think that we have our beliefs because they're advantageous. I don't think that we have them because they're true. Sure having a true belief can be advantageous, but it's not the only advantage we can gain in our environment, and it's an especially challenging goal to attain given our incomplete information. But in order for our beliefs to be advantageous, we have to believe that they're true. It doesn't do us any good to hold a belief that we believe is wrong. Please, whatever your beliefs are, go for it, believe that they're true. It's the healthy human thing to do, whether your beliefs are true or not.
Given our individual, uniquely incomplete information, we each form advantageous beliefs. Depending on our information (genetic, experiential, situational, etc. - have I named them all? How could I know with my incomplete information?) we form different beliefs. We all do it, in the same way that all healthy humans walk on our feet.
If we prefer to form a belief that we do so because we have a soul and humans are good and right and noble and all (or whether we just choose to believe that of white people :-), or whether we believe that it's all just a role of the dice from long ago and were just watching the story unfold, really, I think that we all arrive at our beliefs in the same way and the for the same reasons. That's what I like to believe, and maybe it's even true ..
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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My God, DMT, you suffer from perfectly hot female strangers coming up and pawing your pecs, too?
This is The Problem America Won't Talk About.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:44am PT
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"Please, whatever your beliefs are, go for it, believe that they're true. It's the healthy human thing to do, whether your beliefs are true or not." -rbord
Really?!
Really?!
Really?!
One word:
ISIS.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:48am PT
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"I think that we have our beliefs because they're advantageous. I don't think that we have them because they're true." -rbord
This is true as far as it goes.
And then you ruin it.
.....
"Given our individual, uniquely incomplete information, we each form advantageous beliefs. Depending on our information (genetic, experiential, situational, etc. - have I named them all? How could I know with my incomplete information?) we form different beliefs." rbord
You missed an important one... Science. Modern Science.
Over the last couple centuries, it's accumulated an ENORMOUS amount of info (expert knowledge in the form of expert knowledge systems) concerning how the world works and how life works. This info (though some are loathe to do it, perhaps due to the assoc with religion) is easily rendered in terms of belief.
These science-based beliefs serve as important resources in problem solving, policy-making, living the good life - esp in the modern era where we are being challenged to get on with 7 billion others in peaceful, meaningful and fair ways.
You shouldn't discount science, science education, or science-based beliefs in your thinking. In this day and age, least of all.
.....
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/opinion/oliver-sacks-on-learning-he-has-terminal-cancer.html?_r=1
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Feb 19, 2015 - 09:51am PT
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HFCs love you and your brain! Please do your best to influence others thinking, if you believe that's the right thing to do. Maybe itn truth it is. I think Isis is doing their part too to play out the reality of our human condition. Me I prefer to live in the privilege of my superior intelligence, but that's just me.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:02am PT
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"I think Isis is doing their part too to play out the reality of our human condition." -rbord
Actually, I suspect this may be the case too - depending on pov. As I posted on the other thread yesterday, this ISIS emergence may in some historical perspective have its silver linings.
Crazy chaotic, I know.
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"Depending on our information... we form different beliefs." rbord
We sure as heck do.
I am confident science (science education) can serve as an unbeatable unifying agent here.
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"You non-science types should be free to do whatever you want."
Free? Of course, free. We're liberals here, after all, we all believe in liberal principles.
No one here, esp no lib, ever has in mind of forcing anyone to believe anything. So in that sense, everyone is free to believe. Woot!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:27am PT
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Healyje: Seriously? Jeebus, let's at least keep the bus on the friggin' road. It's a simple proposition - humans are a product of evolution as is our behavior.
You’re missing the point. IF you believe in science, and IF you think that evolution is a theory that explains everything, . . . then make a specific prediction. We’ve been told by more than a few science-types here that THE validation of science as a way of knowing is its ability to make specific and successful predictions.
So make one.
LOVE
As for Love, and what love is—what gnostics are pointing to, at least—is not the love between individuals. It is not the love of “falling in love.” That, indeed, is surely chemical and physical. There is another love.
DMT: But really, I can assure you, women can be just as mindless as men when it comes to sexual attraction and love.
Said by a man.
rbord: But in order for our beliefs to be advantageous, we have to believe that they're true.
I’ll argue with this. I think you’re arguing FOR the existence of things. Second, I think it’s a tautology and circular: “believing beliefs?”
If a person is going to be arguing for science, it would be nice if that person knew a little bit more about how it gets done, its weaknesses, and what science cannot do. Most undergraduate and even most master’s programs don’t give those issues much attention. Most masters programs seem to be a bit too career-oriented rather than *understanding* how the science gets done in a topic domain. People come out of those programs generally feeling like *Masters* of the Universe, rather than humbled by the vast spaces of what their seniors’ curiosities have exposed
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:28am PT
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"If we prefer to form a belief that we do so because we have a soul and humans are good and right and noble and all ... or whether we believe that it's all just a role of the dice from long ago and were just watching the story unfold..." -rbord
Why either-or? how about both.
Hey, thanks for posting up, that post analysis was fun.
Time for a run! :)
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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Totally agree dmt that grouo dynamics can be part of advantageous thinking, for example whites used to sincerely believe blacks had lower intelligence. And scientific thinking and information huge advantageous tool for us humans and helps make true beliefs advantageous. I'm on board. Hurray neuroscience!
I just think that some of the contentiousness of our different perspectives is that we each process our own information in our own way, and we need to believe that our belief is right, and others' beliefs threaten that. Given the choice, I would choose being me over being a member of Isis any day! But if I had all of their information wrapped up in their wrapper, would I have that choice? We'll each form a belief about that and believe it's true, and maybe you're helping to give them that choice, and maybe they're helping us see the effects of our choices.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:35am PT
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Love is a battlefield.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:37am PT
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"But if I had all of their information wrapped up in their wrapper..."
then yes, you would be that ISIS guy.
There but for the grace of god go I.
"What are we, robots?!"
Life, like love, is a battlefield.
Life... it's got its "suckie" parts for sure.
I want to talk to the designer.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:42am PT
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However engaging betting quatloos on the possible meanings of 'belief believing' may be, I thought it might be interesting to discuss the phenomenon of love a bit more personally.
What is it about your 'mate' that draws you to them?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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^^^^^^
A specific prediction, please. In science we are very particular about what we mean by prediction.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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Science is a project.
The French Enlightenment was a project. It promoted three ideas of Progress, Education, and Reason and interwove them. It was thought then that if people could be liberally educated in the use of Reason, that an unending social Progress could be achieved. At least it would have a tendency to promote the general welfare of Mankind by lessening parochial views of The Moral Right of family, community, state, religion, etc.
Since its promotion, a number of political philosophers and thinkers have exposed problems with the project called The French Enlightenment (see de Toqueville). The doubts about the project continues to this day. It does not mean that the promotion of Progress, Education, and Reason are in error. It just means that there appears to be no final solution with the project. Like many things, constant adjustments need to be made, and opening and closing conceptual gaps need consideration as societies and cultures emerge, grow, and wane.
Science is like this. It too is a project that promises general welfare. But it too has problems, limitations, and weaknesses. Rather than focusing on what science produces (technical understandings), it can also be useful to learn about how science gets done in fields, what its claims are as a way of knowing, and what it is ill-suited for.
There is nothing wrong with projects. They fill our time, they can be interesting, and perhaps most importantly tell us something about ourselves, what it means to be. Climbing El-Cap, Denali or Ranier any time of year, or even writing in this thread, are all interesting and helps to show us what and who we are.
Viva projects.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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I've enjoyed rbord's posts. Here's one more bit...
"...and maybe you're helping to give them that choice, and maybe they're helping us see the effects of our choices."
Yes...
I think this thread is a kind of art work of sorts.
Too bad it will probably be nuked some day... not unlike a sand mandala?
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Hope you all had a chance to hear the latest Sam Harris piece on atheism ala the chapel hill murders. Vintage Sam. Important topic.
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-chapel-hill-murders-and-militant-atheism
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"humans will be an incredibly interesting strata in the fossil layer..." BASE
:)
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Feb 19, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Since its promotion, a number of political philosophers and thinkers have exposed problems with the project called The French Enlightenment (see de Toqueville). The doubts about the project continues to this day. It does not mean that the promotion of Progress, Education, and Reason are in error. It just means that there appears to be no final solution with the project. Like many things, constant adjustments need to be made, and opening and closing conceptual gaps need consideration as societies and cultures emerge, grow, and wane.
Science is like this. It too is a project that promises general welfare. But it too has problems, limitations, and weaknesses. Rather than focusing on what science produces (technical understandings), it can also be useful to learn about how science gets done in fields, what its claims are as a way of knowing, and what it is ill-suited for.
Good point MikeL. You are exposing an area that might be considered the proper intersection of philosophy, history, and science, going forward.
I'll add some further points when I have time.
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