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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Thanks eekonee,
That Sam sure is a smooth talker aint he? Don't you think it was freewill that let him write all that?
Seriously.
We really don't have any "free will" at that moment.
Every morning when we awake it's a new creation. We can get up, or not.. and DO anything our mind imagines. go to work or not, go climbing or not. Besides certain circumstances, like you might get fired for not going to work. But those are parameters we build up around ourselves.
WE CAN DO ANYTHING WE WANT THOUGH!
The key is, we know that inorder to be Happy we must line up sequences of action to steer us in that direction. We are not Happy being lazy!
Don't you think you could get up right NOW and give that cat a hug,
or punt him across the room? Depending on how you feel ofcourse..
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Marlow, of COURSE you have a SENSE of control. Everybody would know this if that weren't the case. All I'm saying is that, at every moment, your action or thought is really dictated by previous thoughts/actions. Your perception of "I'm going to randomly select this action or that action" is, indeed, dictated, largely, by what happened just before. You have no free will, really, over what you selected.
As I said, I only "got" this after months of thinking about it. If you think hard about the main alternative to this hypothesis: that there is this agent "you" (pretty much Largo's "I") that is somehow in control of your thoughts and actions, then I would say that it really IS hard to "map" this thing or entity (object as a programmer) with the rest of reality. Not so if the problem is moved to the back end. Again, as a software developer, I'm going to try to program something that reacts to both outside stimulus (the precarious world out there) and makes the next move based on all sorts of "state" data. I wouldn't even try to solve the "problem" that Largo poses because it is irrelevant. The real software problem is in imbuing an after-the-fact sense of agency (we've already solved the "fact part") to a bunch of brain tissue that can subsequently be stimulated to regurgitate the pattern of agency.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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eeyonkee
You say "dictated, largely, by what happened just before".
Other words than "dictated, largely" could be chosen - possibly "determined by" (no choice) at one end of the gliding scale and "fascilitated by" (room for choice) at the other end. Strong feelings connected to the matter at hand gives "determined by", while calm mind gives "fascilitated by" and leaves room for choice.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Much, if not most, of our decision making, as well as the information processing that supports it, happens sub-consciously. We typically become aware of the results of such processing by the way we feel when a decision is finally taken.
Case in point - the first/second date conundrum.
I once went on a date. I had a great time, and felt good about our next meeting. By the time the second date rolled around, however, I was beset with a general feeling of uneasiness. Well, the second date was, sure enough, a dud - and the reasons were pretty clear to me by that point.
What happened? I gathered a lot of information about the person during the first date - but my conscious self filtered out most of the negative stuff, presumably informed by mood and desire at the time. The negative stuff was apparently shunted to my subconscious, however - where it was thoroughly processed anyway. That eventually percolated up to my conscious level in the form of a general feeling of uneasiness.
In other words, my subconscious did most of the heavy lifting with regards to how I felt about this person. In fact, I'd subconsciously made the decision not to continue seeing her even before the second date began.
Yes, I could decide to do something outrageously out of character at any given moment, but, in the absence of extreme circumstances or a brain injury - I won't, because it wouldn't feel right. That's your subconscious decisions engines at work.
We're not automata in the classical sense, because we are learning, changing, and adapting, but I do believe that our free will is largely an illusion in the sense that our subconscious decision making does most of the work with regards to conscious action - and we have little direct, deliberate control over what happens in our subconscious.
In a sense, our subconscious apparatus informs our conscious selves of the answers to most, if not all, decisions, in the form of feelings. A musician playing improv - with most of that playing happening without any conscious thought, probably isn't that different from a mathematician solving a complex problem. You go towards what feels better - and what determines that is largely your subconscious.
Not a straightforward process, given that our feelings are often complex and conflicted.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Strong feelings connected to the matter at hand gives "determined by", while calm mind gives "fascilitated by" and leaves room for choice.
So you agree? strong feelings DO provide Freewill. AN irrational feeling can steer our actions immediately without logical thought.
Whereas harnessing emotions and slowing down thought provides for a predetermined outcome.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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BB said"Whereas harnessing emotions and slowing down thought provides for a predetermined outcome. "
To try to harness emotions and slow down thoughts is fruitless because it is just "I" trying to get a result for "I".
Better to fully observe and experience emotions and thoughts without attaching to them in order to fully recognize them for what they are. Watch them like clouds appearing and disappearing .
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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A calm mind slowing down thinking, leaves room for providing the best data and making an informed choice... (System 2). To "fully observe and experience emotions and thoughts" you will also have to slow down...
Predetermined action is the way of us all when we're in the comfort zone going on autopilot... (System 1)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Now tell me about my friends who are trying to program sentience into a computer. Largo, "give it a shot" didn't mean a shot at programming sentience, but rather a shot at telling you about your friends - you can't program sentience and if they're trying to then way too much acid was dropped along the way.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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To try to harness emotions and slow down thoughts is fruitless because it is just "I" trying to get a result for "I".
i agree, to a point.
Aren't our emotional outburst a barometer of who, and where we are in life's maze? When we emotionally burst out at something thats said that we don't logically agree with, we are in fact seeing our true selves burst forth. knowing what "tans your hide" or what makes you joyous is elementary.
Figuring out why earns you a PHD.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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BB said "When we emotionally burst out at something thats said that we don't logically agree with, we are in fact seeing our true selves burst forth. "
The term "true selves" can probably be defined numerous ways, it is used in buddhism alot and probaly means almost the opposite of your interpretation. A true self based on logic ("I"'s logic) is a true self based on thinking (discursive). The buddhist true self (IMO) is not based on thinking but on direct experience of non-attachment to "I".
Just go to the climate change thread and see all the different "logical" disagreements. It is mess.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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And i mean "True Selves" in the order that in the moment, consciously we are not responsible for that hate or love that arises within. Emotions are a summation from all our past experiences. We remember past emotions better than we remember facts or details. We are born emotional creatures. We start off learning through emotion. i don't see that so much in the animal kingdom. Most all animals are walk'in and talk'in right out of the womb.(BTW, i also don't see animals in pain when giving birth, like women do. God told Eve she would feel the burden of pain during childbirth because of her disgrace in the garden.Coincidence?) Animals seem to walk around like they already know what to do in life. Like their plot is already charted. And when they do something, their emotion is expressed. Why is it animals only/mostly have sex once a year when in season? Why wouldn't they doit all the time if it felt good to them? Can they conceive that emotions are a product of experience and direct their steps inorder to obtain requested emotion? When did emotions first show their face on Evolutions plate? Do plants have emotions? When did animals first start showing signs of emotion? Did the first Simple Celled organism have emotions? Did he do things because he knew it was going to make him happy?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I remember reading an article that discussed evolutionary computing. The program was written in a way to explore things and then toss out what didn't work and what did. The result was the insanely small cellphone.
Has anyone else read that?
I think that taking a concrete position that a machine can NEVER have self awareness is silly. Saying NEVER had a long history of being wrong.
Sure. It could happen. It will happen if we don't fall apart as a society and a species first.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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A true self based on logic ("I"'s logic) is a true self based on thinking (discursive). The buddhist true self (IMO) is not based on thinking but on direct experience of non-attachment to "I".
OK Thanks!
So if it's the opposite, a non-attachment to I would be dis-attachment to emotions?
i can see if you believe that Evolution brought us here today through random chance by way of the strongest survives ideology. You might even suggest that the logical sequence of the Earth gathering together from a montage of asteroids, jumps in orbit around the Sun, then gets infused with water, grows its own atmosphere, which allows those original asteroids full of elements of pre-ancient Star dust to get up and dance with Joy!
Is it your opinion that Matter logically derived Emotion? And that is why we should keep it on the back burner?
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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BB said "So if it's the opposite, a non-attachment to I would be dis-attachment to emotions?"
Non- attachment to "I" is awareness moment to moment , not grasping or pushing away emotions but just being with them fully without any hinderance.
I have to go back to work, be back later or tomorrow.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sure. It could happen. It will happen if we don't fall apart as a society and a species first.
They got'em. They got cars that park themselves. Through a camera lens they take pics and compare them with ones already stored to make decisions.
That's robotic awareness, right?
But Sentience on the other hand...would we teach a robot to hate?
Learning about the human body, and trying to imagine building one is pretty neat to say the least! But it makes me wonder what kind we would build..
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Non- attachment to "I" is awareness moment to moment , not grasping or pushing away emotions but just being with them fully without any hinderance.
See this just paints a picture in my mind of the Buddha sitt'in with his leggs crossed holding himself, saying, Ohm Ohm Ohm.(nothing derogatorilyal sexual meant there!) But you know what i mean?
Whereas whats wrong with me when i jump up and down, screaming, when my daughter gets a base hit? Don't we live for these exciting moments?
Do we not predict our days actions according to our conceived gratifications? Your right in that we should be logical in how we get there. That's why i believe Baseball is America's sport. There's a lot of thinking going on before that ball is pitched. ALL the "If"-"Thens", all the, "How will i feel if "this" happens, or "that". Our minds are overwhelmed with thoughts, and emotions must be harnessed. And when the ball is pitched, All eyes watching for that one second while the ball is in the air are in a state of no-thingness. No thoughts, No emotion, (except i guess anticipation). Until that swing of the bat concludes our idea is right or wrong with a strikeout or a homerun closing the open vulnerability we carried in anticipation, allowing us to exhaust our emotion. If it's a strikeout, we hang our head low. But if it's a homerun, we jump up and down!
It's the logical anticipation that bequeives orgasm that makes Baseball the greatest game ever invented!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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It takes a world to make a human. No man is an island. We are inseparable from our biosphere.
Now THAT"S some WOO Woo
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WBraun
climber
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Saying NEVER had a long history of being wrong.
The sun will never rise in the west.
And that is a long history of being right ........
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