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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
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Capra's easy to understand compared to the point of this thread.
Fine, Forty. Now tell me about my friends who are trying to program sentience into a computer. Are they chasing their tail? Exactly what tail are they chasing?
No, you say. They are trying something "real," based on real (material) stuff. Right?
I promise to never jerk the ruder again so long as you can tell us how to get started on writing that code on sentience. And saying, "We don't have the data yet," won't wash. All we are talking about is STARTING to write it, the conceptual stuff we need to just approach the problem.
You toss off in that silly avuncular tone of your all this tripe about forcing the converstation into muddy waters, so simply clear it up for us sufering fools. Right now.
Or come clean and admit to all what you don't know or are hazzy about. And I figure the chances of that kind of honesty are close on 1,000,000 to 1.
Fact is, a "logical falacy" is meaningful only if you insist on trying to cram reality into the wrong container, and when it don't fit, cry foul. Now who is really insecure here? I've never cried fowl over any of this. But again, if a ruler is your only tool, at least tell us how to meausre sentience so we can get started on that code.
JL
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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ML said
"I don't see how anyone can not see the web of life in reality, or in the world. How can anything exist concretely on its own, independently, and without change? How could either be possible? It does more than stretch the mind's imagination. It's just not logical. Everything is connected to everything. What 3rd-grader does not understand that? We beat insight and intuition out of young people institutionally, when they sense very well reality and the universe. "
So my 11 yr old daughter went to a farm camp this week. She is a city kid and they will do farm stuff and live outside, collecting eggs, milking cows and eating the food from the farm etc.. i was thinking after we left her that most home sickness cases will really be withdrawal symptoms from lack of electronic devices. I am thinking this farm experience will help her see how things are connected.
We don't see the connectedness of all things because we are too busy being the center of our own universe; that is a big job! No time for that connected woo woo sh*t; "I" is overwhelmed thinking about "I" trying to get what it wants.
I liked the Benedictine monk's explaination of how practiceing mindfulness naturally generated gratitude and IMO the gratitude can grease the skids for perceiving connectedness.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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The scheduled lecture by Ward Trotter will begin shortly:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Refreshments are available in the lobby.
Tonight's topic:Intermittent Fasting and Autophagy
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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One thing forsure, without water there'd be no life!
But without life would there be a Mind?
Is there any resemblance of a Mind in a rock, or pure distilled water?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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"I" is overwhelmed thinking about "I" trying to get what it wants (PSP)
"I" is certainly a busy boy!
You argue that "I" is illusory or can be set aside with practice, enabling us to become compassionate and ego-less.
I argue that if that is true, then the same can be said of "You." "You" is provisional and to be compassionate with "You" carries with it the same flaws as being over-indulgent with "I." In fact, none of us really exist as independent entities, as Mike has told us. We are accidents of quantum flux and such.
It's a damn cruel world . . .
;>(
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Now tell me about my friends who are trying to program sentience into a computer.
Well, maybe fort will or won't but as a software guy I'd be happy to take a shot at it. So, taking it from the top:
a) I suspect your friends would utterly cringe at your description of their work
b) If you are accurately describing their work then someone dropped way, way too much acid to the point of delusion
c) There is no hardware, firmware, or software tooling now on Earth or out on our generation's horizon capable of allowing you to conceptually dance with even a vague notion of 'sentience'.
d) The phrase `synapse-like’ plasticity from recent articles in the neuromorphic engineering arena by itself should be a clue we are still just scratching the surface of understanding neurons and synapses let alone mimicking more than a shadow of the real deals in aggregate be it in simulations or silicon.
e) Might as well be trying to get the Moon out of the nearest pond.
And you should really consider backing away from the whole computer thing - it's not your strong suit.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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You should really consider backing away from the whole computer thing - it's not your strong suit
But it's such fun to watch him grapple!
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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JG said "You argue that "I" is illusory or can be set aside with practice, enabling us to become compassionate and ego-less.
I argue that if that is true, then the same can be said of "You." "You" is provisional and to be compassionate with "You" carries with it the same flaws as being over-indulgent with "I." In fact, none of us really exist as independent entities, as Mike has told us. We are accidents of quantum flux and such.
It's a damn cruel world . . ."
You are correct John. There is a zen story where the student shows his attachment to both "I" and "you" and the zen master tells him it is bad enough to be attached to "I" but you compound your problems by adding "You" to the mix.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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A complex function (non-holomorphic) defined by infinite (inner) composition. 20X20
Here it is: an image of sentience.
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MH2
climber
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^^^^^^
My thoughts.
I hope the NSA isn't looking.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I'm breaking my promised silence on this thread only to say thanks for posting up that video, Ed. Brilliant! It's set the tone for my morning of programming (not sentience).
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MikeL
Trad climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Pretty funny and creative, Ed.
Presenting content out of its normal context like that shifts the meaning of the content. If someone were to do that with Jan's or my fields of study, it would look just as silly or whimsical. All disciplines look like this from an outside and unconsidered viewpoint (note DMT's comments throughout). From the inside, they are fun and insightful even though serious; from the outside view they look absurd. That is the view that I have been talking about with my teacher of late: none of it makes common sense, not even common sense.
Could the world be stranger? Could we? Paradoxes, dilemmas, incommensurabilities piled on top of each other as far and as high as the eye can see.
As Morbius said to Neo in the Matrix: "Welcome to the Real world."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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what is The Matrix, but a 136 minute mashup of pop-philosophy in an absurd kung-fu movie background?
at least Bohemian Gravity is over in 8:15
it's is all entertainment, and perhaps only accidentally an intellectual activity, which I imagine you might say is also entertainment, and I would be obliged to agree.
so serious you are, almost lamenting that there is no "common sense" but really, what would you define as "common sense" maybe you should think about it... the baseline of "cosmic consciousness"? our cumulative cultural setting? the wiring of our brain? the inherited behaviors?
and so surprised that when we poke at any of these they fray, and when we pull the resulting threads the entire fabric is unwoven and what was once a glorious pattern is reduced to an incoherent pile of colorful string.
we learn, after all, that the solidity of the tapestry was an illusion and what we took as something knotted into solidity turned out to be not knotted at all. what is a knot, after all?
isn't it wonderful!
there is your truth, a discouraging pile of trash sitting on the floor waiting for the weekly garbage pickup.
let's do it again!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 09:48am PT
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Healje said:
Now tell me about my friends who are trying to program sentience into a computer.
Well, maybe fort will or won't but as a software guy I'd be happy to take a shot at it.
I DON'T BELIEVE FOR A SECOND THAT THIS IS AN HONEST STATEMENT. PEOPLE TALK HUGE ON THIS THREAD, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOUR OPENING SALVO IN PROGRAMNING SENTIENCE INTO A COMPUTER. PERHAPS START WITH DESCRIBING WHAT IT IS USING TRADITIONAL, MATERIAL-BASED BREAK DOWN OF STRICTLY MECHANICAL FUNCTIONS THAT ARE NOT EMERGENT, SUCH I AM TOLD YOU CAN'T PROGRAM THOSE.
So, taking it from the top:
a) I suspect your friends would utterly cringe at your description of their work.
MY ONLY DESCRIPTION OF THEIR WORK IS THAT THEY ARE NOT FINDING IN THE NEURO LITERATURE ANYTHING THAT WOULD HELP THEM WTH THE SENTIENCE PROBLEM. THY ARE ONLY FINDING FANTASTICALLY DETAILED DATA ON OBJECIVE FUNCTIONING. BUT PER SENTIENCE, OR SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS, OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, THERE IS NOTHING WHATSOEVER THAT DESCRIBES HOW THIS IS MECHANICALLY PRODUCED, THAT THESE NEURONS - FOR EXAMPLE - DO SENTIENCE AS THEY DO MEMORY. MIRROR NEURONS AND SO FORTH HAVE PROVEN A BUST. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO HEAR WHAT YOUR EFFORTS WILL BE BASED ON, HEALJY.
b) If you are accurately describing their work then someone dropped way, way too much acid to the point of delusion
THEY HAVE NOT EVEN BEGUN THEIR WORK. THAT'S THE POINT. KINDLY TELL THEM WERE TO START, WITH WHAT DATA, AND WORKIGN OFF WHAT DESCRIPTION.
c) There is no hardware, firmware, or software tooling now on Earth or out on our generation's horizon capable of allowing you to conceptually dance with even a vague notion of 'sentience'.
SO IN WHAT MANNER ARE YOU GOING TO "TAKE A SHOT" AT WRITING THAT CODE, A JOB THAT YOU VOLUNTEERED TO DO UP ABOVE, AND WHICH I STATED FOR THE RECORDED AS A WISE CRACK AND NOT AN HONEST STATEMENT?
d) The phrase `synapse-like’ plasticity from recent articles in the neuromorphic engineering arena by itself should be a clue we are still just scratching the surface of understanding neurons and synapses let alone mimicking more than a shadow of the real deals in aggregate be it in simulations or silicon.
THIS IS ASSUMING THAT NEURONS WILL DISCLOSE HOW SENTIENCE IS "PRODUCED." AND "IN AGGREGRATE." THIS, INCIDENTALLY, IS THE ASSUMPTION OF THIS KIND OF THESIS: "The fundamental premise in this work is that whereever consious self-awareness is generated, the neuronal structure(s) invloved must continually have access to an extremely precise representation of information derived from the sense of vision plus a great variety of other kinds of information so as to permit it to make decisions regarding actions (movements and their implementation) that promote the survival and perpetuation of the biological system in which the self is generated."
NOTICE HOW THE 'SELF' IS POSITED AS A THING HERE, AND THAT SENTIENCE IS AN OBJECIVE FUNCTION. BUT IF YOU LOOK CLOSE, AND FUNCTION DESCRIBED, IN EVERY CASE, NEVER IMPLIES SENTIENCE, BUT RATHER A STIMULUS RESPONSE MECHANICISM HOOKED TO SURVIVAL.
e) Might as well be trying to get the Moon out of the nearest pond.
SO THEN WHAT IS HEALJE GONG TO GIVE US WITH HIS OFFER TO "TAKE A SHOT?"
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Since I've broken my promise technically, I'll break it in spirit, as well (lying sack of sh#t that I am). For several months now, I've been mulling over this idea, made popular by Sam Harris, that free will is an after-the-fact illusion. At first I resisted it. He contends that our sense of agency is not what we think at all. What really happens is this: Our very next thought or action is not the result of any "I" in the way that Largo alludes to (that's the illusion part). Rather, it is entirely dictated by our mental "state" in the moments prior to the action. At the very moment of action we cannot help ourselves. We really don't have any "free will" at that moment. Our current "state" is dictated by all of our past actions (particularly the most recent ones) and internal images and memories leading up to the current moment along with a healthy dose of random chance, as we live in an unpredictable world (it changes from moment to moment in ways entirely out of our control).
Since I work from home, I watch our cat a lot. She's like a honey badger. She just does whatever she wants, "she doesn't give a sh#t". More often than not, she lies on her fat ass somewhere doing nothing. Suddenly she'll get up for some reason. An unexpected sound will do it every time. It's not all that different for us. We just do something in the next moment and have an after-the-fact sense of agency about it. So, I guess what I'm saying is that, it's even worse than Largo thinks.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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That's a brilliant video, Ed. I've always loved Queen.
Infinity for physicists seems to be a problem, but for me it lies at the pleasurable heart of everything I investigate!
;>)
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Since I'm on a roll. Notice what moving the point of "agency" from the front to the back does for the programming part. It means that an algorithm could be made from all of the inputs and then executed. The magic is in giving a sense of agency to the thing that already happened. I'll have to mull over this issue for a while. If I were programming "sentience", I would start with these assumptions.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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I just wondered what "after-the-fact sense of agency about it" eeyonkee had this time.
I'm about to post this post now and my illusion is that I have a sense of agency before posting. Why is that? Is it an illusion?
Below you see a photo, I have a sense of agency while posting it and know it is breaking the rules, so I'll delete it in a minute. I have a sense of agency about this too. Tell me... am I wrong?
Photo deleted...
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