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John M
climber
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Good chance that the "as#@&%e sniper" is a government agent.
seriously doubt it unless he was undercover. no trained sniper would allow someone at their back. the militia said that they couldn't get close to the government snipers. There is a reason for that. It has to do with training.
If he isn't, and he's still walking around freely, I really wonder about you all who think the gov did such a great job there.
I haven't read anything on this forum that would lead me to believe that anyone here thinks that the government did a good job.
Edit: There is a difference in believing the gov had a right to do what they did and in whether they handled it well or not. this ones going to go down as a huge bungle as now people are starting to believe that the way to dispute the government is to show up with guns. Already happening.
http://www.moabsunnews.com/opinion/article_71bf4306-d043-11e3-a7e1-0017a43b2370.html
the thing is, once it was bungled was it a good idea to keep forcing it, or back off. I believe that it was a good idea to back off and try again another day with a better plan. One that includes officers who are better trained to deal with such people.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Well they don't call him blahblah for nothing.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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The fact that they backed out without any hillbillies getting shot is a testament to their restraint. BINGO
Lot of Monday morning quarterbacking here. In the face of deliberate and escalating armed insurrection with women and children as shields they backed down instead of calling in the Apaches and Cobras (deliberate exaggeration).
The Law has a long memory. The FBI always gets their man.
And all the bitching about the armed BLM. Damned good thing and I'll be a little less likely to complain about my local park Ranger and Yosemite Rangers packing in future.
It is specifically against the Constitution to use the US military to enforce federal law. They can however put down armed insurrection.
Ergo the well armed BLM/Fed Marshalls/FBI (assuming the FBI was there).
If you look at the videos they exercised commendable restraint when they could have arrested the Bundyites early on. Interfering with a Federal Officer in the execution of his legal duties.
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Thanks John M, for bumping this impending BLM vs sovereign citizen-type debacle: a May 8 action of (civil or not we will see, nonviolent or not we will see) disobedience to federal law on federal jurisdiction land, near Blanding, UT.
How should the BLM handle this event, of which they have been forewarned? How will they handle it? What do you folks think of the article and the author's obviously pro-conservation stance?
http://www.moabsunnews.com/opinion/article_71bf4306-d043-11e3-a7e1-0017a43b2370.html
I too am more likely, HT, to accept the ARs and armament I previously deemed unnecessary on federal LEOs - but should they show up armed to the teeth for the May 8 action planned at Recapture Canyon? Should the motorized users show up armed to the gills and all liquored up? Should I go with a sunshade and lawnchair and an icy bottle of tequila? Should I throw the pebble that starts the firefight? Gawd this could get juicy - err bloody...
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Since none of us know what the govt did, or did not do, how can you judge whether they did a "good job".
Guaranteed there was some infiltration. So without knowing what information those infiltrators were getting, what other surveillance they were doing, etc we really don't know.
THe whole thing could have been massively successful, or a complete keystone cops routine. The fact that none of the seditious shitkickers were killed is a good start. The probability that they id'd and are now monitoring a bunch of deranged traitor "sovereign citizens", is another good start.
Those dipshits in Alaska, Shaeffer Cox and his little friends, who were playing at being Lib-ur-tardian "Sovrun citizuns" and puffing their chest talking about assasinating federal judges and staging an armed revolt...yeah, they are in prison now. All over a tax evasion case...sound familiar?
http://www.newsminer.com/news/alaska_news/five-arrested-in-alleged-plot-to-kidnap-kill-alaska-state/article_8bf95fab-368e-518d-8f6f-776fc4f69992.html
A snippet:
Cox has used his case to challenge the authority of the Alaska Court System, calling himself a sovereign citizen and claiming the court is a for-profit corporation with no authority over him.
In a lengthy courtroom speech last year, Cox said he does not intend to cooperate with the court system, but he sees himself as a peacemaker between his supporters and the government.
The FBI describes the Sovereign Citizen Movement as a domestic terrorism group.
Members of the movement do not believe U.S. laws apply to them and sometimes make their own license plates or create their own legal trials, according to the FBI. A group of Fairbanks residents recently conducted their own trial of Cox at Denny’s Restaurant.
Cox has previously appeared as a public figure as gun rights activist and a legislative candidate. He unsuccessfully challenged Republican Rep. Mike Kelly in 2008.
He is a leader of the Alaska Peacemakers Militia and the Second Amendment Task Force. He has helped organize multiple gun-rights and personal freedoms rallies, including the 2009 “Freedom Fest” at the Carlson Center. Cox is a member of a “Liberty Bell network,” which sends out mass notifications to assemble a crowd of witnesses when a member believes his or her rights are being violated.
Cox was arrested on the weapons charge while supervising a search warrant as part of a Liberty Bell call.
Can't make this sh#t up. Atchafalaya nailed it...Burns Brigade Meeting at the Carson City Denny's has been canceled, moved to Jack in the Box next week. LOLZ.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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The Gubment has all kinds of ways to take these yahoo's out behind the woodshed. They made the right decision at the time to avoid a lot of needless bloodshed.
I am sure there are lots of people reviewing video tape etc., making a list and checking it twice to make sure they ID all the "naughty" little boys playing soldier.
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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Kos: So what of the May 8th action in Recapture Canyon, pitting a local official (San Juan County Commissioner) and posse ('dozens' of ORV-types) against the BLM's road closure? Will it be good enough that I should get down there with an umbrella and an iced drink?
The BLM has got to be shitting bricks plotting an appropriate response....
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Wait til the IRS gets done with him, he'll be wishing they had shot his fat azz.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Since it is May Day, I will submit that Cliven Bundy got one thing correct: all property is theft!
"If I were asked to answer the following question: What is slavery? and I should answer in one word, It is murder!, my meaning would be understood at once. No extended argument would be required . .Why, then, to this other question: What is property? may I not likewise answer, It is robbery!, without the certainty of being misunderstood; the second proposition being no other than a transformation of the first?"
—Pierre-Joseph Proudhon
Marx thought Proudhon was a nut, but Bundy is down with his fellow anarchist.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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kid has an iPad app that makes realistic gun sounds...well he did until I told him to delete it Smart Dad. Could've gotten him killed in some places.
I'm surprised Apple let that one into the store. I'll have to reread my developer's agreement.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Gary, you are my favorite communist.
Mine too!
John
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aww, shucks, fellas...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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My Dad and father-in-law never talked about WW2, it wasn't a pleasant experience for them. You couldn't pull it out of them. They kept it all inside. They didn't want to relive any of it.
That's exactly my experience, Bob. Although I was 1A in 1969, I never had to serve in Viet Nam. Still, I lost friends there, and those who returned didn't care to relive those days.
My father was almost 41 when they bombed Pearl Harbor, volunteered for the Navy and, to his astonishment, was accepted for the Sea Bees. He helped build the airbase on Guam under fire, but also buried a lot of Japanese war dead. He never told us any of this, but we were able to find out about it from some of his fellow Sea Bees who visited us. He never initiated a conversation about it.
His youngest sister (and the person most responsible for my love of the mountains, music and the game of bridge) was a lieutenant in the WACs as a nurse on a hospital ship in WWII and, again, we had to pry anything about the war out of her. On the day she died, I discovered a large envelope containing her first lieutenant bars and a whole mess of ribbons in her dresser drawer. She never talked about them, and I still have no idea what most of them were for, although I have been able to identify various decorations for particular theaters of operations, including off Cherbourg in July of 1944, and a lot of areas in the Marianas.
I knew my father-in-law was a radioman on a B-24 in the Pacific only because he told me that's why he couldn't hear that well, and why he didn't care to travel by air. On the day of his brother's funeral two years ago, his niece brought his brother's scrapbook, including an article in the Fresno Bee in early 1945 about my father-in-law's medal he won for bravery during the bombardment of Iwo Jima preceding the invasion. My father-in-law never said a thing about that and now, with his Alzheimer's-like dementia, remembers nothing about it. It's probably merciful that he doesn't.
War is the greatest violence we commit against each other, and all I know who've been through it hate it with a consuming passion. While I know military action remains necessary, and have the greatest respect for those who endured combat, I lose no love for those who would glorify it.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The FBI describes the Sovereign Citizen Movement as a domestic terrorism group.
I've had to deal with various crackpot offshoots of that movement over the years in connection with foreclosure actions. They certainly remain unencumbered by a knowledge of, or respect for, the law. Even without physical violence, they've caused all sorts of problems gumming up various courts. After losing a particularly vitriolic motion in bankruptcy court, one of the movement showed his eloquence and erudition by posting a sign on his soon-to-be-former property, facing Highway 99, that read "Pigs and Judges ain't bolitproof. [sic]"
Nice guys, I'm sure.
John
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John...my number was 17 in 1971, my dad told me I wasn't going to war.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Crankster--as I and others have noted, the most ridiculousguys there are probably undercover federal agents. it is funny, sort of, but I stop laughing when I pause to consider who is paying for all this nonsense.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Crankster--as I and others have noted, the most ridiculousguys there are probably undercover federal agents. it is funny, sort of, but I stop laughing when I pause to consider who is paying for all this nonsense. Laughably stupid.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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My dad made a big point of discourageing me from going in the army. He rarely talked about the war ETO Colmar pocket, Bulge etc. I do have a few of his letters to his cousin who got hit real bad @ Anzio. My dad was hit january 45, back in the line febuary.
Interesting to note that a huge contigent of our modern professional army thrives on combat. Generation Kill is just one of many good books out there about our modern armed forces. Get Some! I believe this mentality derives from total air superiority as well as fire superiority in all other areas. Operating in target rich enviornments with relativly few casultys. We have multiple snipers racking up 200+ kills. Most of the hajis can't hit sh#t. They spray and pray while our guys mostly have eotechs ( really nice red dot w/1 moa dot) and ACOG's superb 4x scope as well as night vision and more sh#t on call than you could possibly imagin. Insurgent have no artilery or air and their mortar fire is usualy indirect. It is easy to think war is fun with those kinds of odds.
In WW11 both the japanese and Germans had excelent air force, excelent navy, excelent artilery, excelent marksmanship. the germans had arguably the best field artilery piece of the war in their 88mm multi purpose gun as well as much better tanks than us. germans also had better and heavier mortars and The best light machinegun of the war (MG44). Fighting these guys was not fun. My dads company lost 14 guys one morning. Entire brigades often did not lose that many in a full years deployment in 2003-2013. There were more casualtys in 45 min @ Iwo Jima than in 10 years of the hottest part of our modern conflict.
In Viet nam the NVA were excelent shots, they had very good mortars and artilery, their 120mm cannon were nasty, fighting those guys was not fun!
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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But Fightin' the BLM and the Gubmint orta be a hootin nanny.
Get it?
Cause nannys iz wimin and wimin n chillin iz up front n first and they be hootin.
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