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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 14, 2011 - 11:07am PT
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Richard and Mark have virtually nothing in common with Bonatti.
...except controversy and attendant character defamation.
Defame on...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 14, 2011 - 11:12am PT
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Thanks for your permission...
If you have followed this controversy in depth then you know that it far from one-sided. Bwana and Skid are captains of destiny...LOL
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 14, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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If you have followed this controversy in depth then you know that it far from one-sided.
This "controversy" exists in the minds of half a dozen "serious wall climbers," and their various syncophants. Anyone who has spent time around "serious wall climbers" knows they are mostly seriously f*#ked up individuals. Some of them grow up, some of them don't.
I suppose it is about permission...who gives it and who needs it. You obviously don't need anyone's permission to carry on your 30 year elitist vendetta/tantrum. The fact is that thirty years ago somebody put up a climb without your permission in a style you disapprove of. So What?
Never said it was one-sided. IMO no ones' reputation is being enhanced by this spectacle. But you may want to ponder whose is being tarnished.
I personally during that time didn’t care one way or the other. It was their thing, not mine.
I don’t own any rock so they can do whatever they want. - Werner Braun, page one wos thread.
Edit: WTF is a Captain of Destiny...and why is he laughing out loud?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 14, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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My only negative memory of the Valley in the 70's was the elitist attitude and snobbery of "some" of the Valley locals. While it didn't effect me personally, I felt it was wrong not to welcome newcomers and help ease their transition.
edit: I always admired "outsiders" like Jimmy Dunn and Henry Barber who came to the Valley and got it done.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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Sep 14, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
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Other than Werner, I'd argue there are and were no valley "locals". Its just a bunch of climbers passing through.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 14, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
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In the early 70's there was a group of climbers, myself included, who were consistently there for the seasons if not the whole year. Werner was a member of that group who chose to make the Valley his home.
edit: Silver, I don't know, I'm not there very often.
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Sep 14, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
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Keep it up !
Now this conversation may actually be going somewhere .
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Sep 14, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
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When I climb a rock I make myself and only myself happy. It's totally selfish. I'm not solving world hunger, I'm not feeding the hungry or healing the sick, I'm climbing a fricken stupid rock!
30 years ago some guys climbed a new route on El Cap. Some other guys didn't like those guys. The route the guys put up had a few chipped holds but certainly far less than the most chipped route on the cliff at that time.
30 years later they are still being ragged for their climb.
No doubt, somewhere in all that time, somewhere in the world someone has been murdered and the relatives of the deceased have forgiven the murderers, but 30 years later, the guys who did a first ascent on El Cap are still getting ragged on.
It's simply amazing! It's almost beyond comprehension!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 14, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
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This post really clarified for me what the current controversy is about:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=924488&msg=924488#msg924488
Steve Grossman:
From the October 1986 issue of Climbing, this is the third and last classic Valley wall survey. Written in the midst of the Platinum Age by my partner, the ever snappy and old school, Charles Cole.
Hmm the "Platinum age", we had roughly the 60s Golden Age, The 70s Stonemaster era, now we have special status for the 80s too! And someone needs to be the leaders of that era right? Someone needs to be a part of valley climbing history.
From the obviously unbiased article:
Jolly Roger: Despite added bat hook holes, still no 2nd ascent. Attempts have suffered 120 and 200 foot falls.
Wings of Steel: Almost every other placement is a bolt. Inexperienced kids, having never climbed El Cap before, spent over 30 days on the wall, then had the temerity to hype their route with slide shows and articles.
The funny thing is that all the controversy and sh#t only increased interest in WoS. e.g. "Wings of Steel is one of the most difficult and the most controversial climb on Yosemite's El Capitan." So all the libel has mainly served to promote the climb. Perhaps it should be called "The Steel Age" ;-)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 14, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
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For the record I always thought of The Grand Voyage as the defining big wall climb of that era. Following Yvon's idea of taking Yosemite big wall skills into uncompromising and difficult alpine environments.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
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"Wings of Steel is one of the most difficult and the most controversial climb on Yosemite's El Capitan."
The most difficult climbs on the Captain are the free routes.
Look at the Nose for example.
Standing in aid ladders is going backwards .......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 14, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
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Touche Werner!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Sep 15, 2011 - 12:13am PT
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"Wings of Steel: Almost every other placement is a bolt."
Must be true. How else could Ammon have taken all those forty- and fifty-footers?
Parochialism was alive and well here in 1998 when Tomaz Humar arrived from Slovenia to solo Reticent Wall. Nobody would give him a topo - I was the first. Gave him beta after we got down, and he sent.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2011 - 01:36am PT
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pete, who are you quoting?
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2011 - 01:37am PT
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It's obvious that so many of you are quick to question the detractors simply for questioning their claims. Why are you so closed-minded to ignore how they met the challenges of this route? If we were all on the ground in the C4 lot discussing this as it unfolded in 1982, there's no way the majority wouldn't still be in agreement that this particular party was way out of their league in what they were prepared for and set out to do. Again, you people are not getting the 10 feet per hour reality. Read the timeline; it's straight out of their book!
Based on the substance of the posts downing the criticism of the FA, there's a clear bias founded in a lack of open-mindedness and acceptance of the facts as written directly by the FA ad infinitum. It is clearly a support-the-perceived-outsider/underdog mentality. You people simply refuse to acknowledge the facts and haven't followed the story from the beginning.
Leaving aside the issue of how many drilled hooks, Deucie and others have already calculated that this half-height variation is even more drill-dependent than the Wall of the Early Morning Light. These guys roared onto the ST proclaiming "Who better than us," "Someone is going to do the slab one day and why shouldn't it be us," and "We've been wronged" and "We're owed an apology from the climbing community at large," especially SteveG, for citing them as a cursory example of what not to do in an established area on an FA. You are all discounting the entire group of highly skilled wall climbers of the day that watched this unfold and were rightfully critical and pissed off to the point of doing something never before heard of to another party. Could it be that there's something about these guys and their personalities and mannerisms that warrant such negative reaction?
They claim to be knowledgable of the standards of the day and what had been done. As the book clearly maps out, they were clueless and amazingly ignorant of the most basic climbing fundamentals and learned skills.
The prodding it has taken to get any stretch of truth from these guys is ridiculous. And they're the ones entering the public arena to spray about their climbs with slide shows, articles, RC.com and the ST (where they haven't been well received). Sorry, Steve and I just couldn't roll out the welcome wagon.
First, it was none, then it was a handful, then it was 12-point font sized drill holes, now it's three handfuls (16 out of 151 hook placements). All of this controversy in the name of answering the simple question asked for any modern route; what is the hole count?, aka, the number of times the drill touches the rock to get the job done, big or small.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 15, 2011 - 01:40am PT
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Looking at the bright side, there seems to be agreement that they weren't rap-hooking.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 15, 2011 - 01:47am PT
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i've not commented yet and find certain things Mimi is saying in her last post to be distasteful and untrue to the spirit of climbing-these wall climbing masters, i know who they are, but they don't own El Cap, they don't make rules, and the way they expressed their distaste was childish and vulgar. Yeah, they were upset, but wasn't there a better way to let the WoS team know that-it's playground bully mentality at best.
As far as their personalities, again, are we in high school, that one clique decides who is the coolest and the rest fall in line-so what if they were weird, or christian or plain old as#@&%es. Hell at one time all climbers were perceived that way, and we thought nothing of it. Grow up, live and let live.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2011 - 01:54am PT
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David, like I said. This never happened to a party before. And the crew that did the deed was a very small group. You're another one being suckered into this playground bully BS. The whole persecution hot air balloon has been losing altitude for a long time. It's stragglers like you that keep it afloat. Own the rock, how ridiculous! Why not just say 'claim dominion' and get it over with. LOL! How about them showing some respect in the first place?
Are you a wall climber?
Thanks, Rox. Amazing mix of allegiances, eh?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 15, 2011 - 02:24am PT
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Rok, judging by many of these posts I adivse you to change your WERE to STILL ARE.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2011 - 02:25am PT
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California's a tough crowd. I beat that rap. LOL! Nobody I knew at the time felt compelled to pooh on anyone. But reading about the French Mudfalconers and the 'jealous locals' poohing really cracked me up. What a magical time to be ripped in the Valley.
Rox, yep. Obviously good point.
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