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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Mar 26, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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Can you imagine if that bird had shown up at a Trump rally?
Get 'em out of here!!
Bird would probably get sucker punched on the way out.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 26, 2016 - 04:41pm PT
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Cut CO2 and methane emissions. It's that f*#king simple. The complex part is all the bullshit we make up because we don't want to do it.
This reminds me of the "simplicity" of things like perpetual motion: "Just build a no-friction, no air-resistance device and flick the moving part with your finger. It's that f*#king simple."
Since it's "it's that f*#king simple," then you'll be quick to explain how WE control the nations of the world who pollute FAR more than we do, such as China for example. http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/article24510001.html
Maybe they'll ultimately feel the economic loss sufficiently to be motivated to put them out. But at present their officials are at best evasive regarding their efforts, even when pressured about the greenhouse gasses these fire emit about 3% of all such emissions globally.
But, of course, it's OUR fault with our "bullshit we make up" that China has had these fires going back over 100 years!
Oh, and "it's that f*#king simple" to control the greenhouse gas emissions of developing nations! Yeah, right. We just have to quit the "excuses" and MAKE those nations knock it off!
So, tell us all how MUCH to "cut," since "it's that f*#king simple."
Oh, and let's just keep mowing down rain forest at an ASTRONOMICAL pace, so that we can expand cattle ranching to feed our lust for meat. Yeah, convert TREES into farting cows! Good one! And exactly how "f*#king simple" is it to stop THAT process, which is FAR more of a problem than all of the cars and industry in the USA?
Yeah, yours is the typical perpetual motion, "f*#king simple" response I expected.
Oh, and how global warming is all so BAD remains a huge open question.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Mar 26, 2016 - 05:12pm PT
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By relatively straight forward I meant the economic and technical issues are straight forward (as compared to "fixing" the middle east). I'm not claiming the politics are doable. Too much money and too much denial. And the politics of getting all countries on board isn't doable either.
Over a 10 or 20 years period ramp up a carbon tax of $100/ton of CO2 (or whatever number the economist/wonks thinks is required), sit back and the problem would mostly solve itself through the "magic of the market". (And you guys probably thought I was left wing.)
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Norton
Social climber
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Mar 26, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
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When polled, people said Global Warming was 22nd out of 23 on the list of public policy priorities.
and 75% of American adults, not children, believe in Angels
polling Americans is so meaningful, when you can tear them away from Married with Children
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Mar 26, 2016 - 05:21pm PT
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So how are you going to get people to go along with a massive tax, like the one August West proposes, if people don't even think Global Warming's much of a problem?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 26, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
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What are the top five most urgent issues in our country?
I'm going to respond in terms of "threats" rather than "issues" that the federal government has the power to significantly reduce or eliminate.
1) Our money being owned by "the fed," manipulated without connection to any tangible assets, and then loaned back to us at interest.
2) Unregulated Wall Street and monolithic, international banks.
3) Unregulated corporations that are more and more considered to be "persons" with all the rights and privileges of "persons," but that cannot suffer the penalties of real persons when they do what is illegal/unethical.
4) Big money's stranglehold on the political process.
5) The military-industrial complex's determination to keep us invested in foreign conflicts, especially those that in no way conform to the Powell Doctrine.
These threats all have their influence on everything from our healthcare problems to our state of indebtedness, which in turn constrains our options and limits our freedoms.
Jefferson was correct in his letter to John Taylor in 1816: "I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
Is terrorism a significant threat? Absolutely! But is is more a symptom of our reaping the whirlwind for our unethical and even illegal entanglements in other nations that served no other interests than those of the military-industrial complex and gigantic, multi-national corporations.
Even our decades-too-long dependency on fossil fuels (and the wars and political manipulations that have emerged from that) is a direct result of the above-mentioned threats.
Most of what we now consider to be "issues" and "threats" are actually symptoms that can be quickly and directly traced back to these real threats.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 26, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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polling Americans is so meaningful, when you can tear them away from Married with Children
Well, I must admit that I liked Married With Children. But I could manage to "tear away" long enough to ask such questions as....
What exactly is so BAD about global warming?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Mar 26, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
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Moosedrool....how could you forget no more snow and no more skiing...? Most of the world cup nordic races in europe this season were held on man made snow...! Nothing unusual there , eh..? The 90K Marcialonga ski race course in Italy was held , enitrely on man made snow...There is little snow below 8500 feet in the central sierra inspite of average snow fall percentages..can't be global warming now could it...?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 26, 2016 - 06:36pm PT
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Could you add three more not related to the economy?
LOL... you go first. I believe that the list I offered is not merely "economic problems" and that most "non-economic problems" can find an anchor in the ones I listed.
For example, take poverty and its closely-related inner-city hopelessness and crime. I'm sure you yourself can quickly see how these problems emerge from the first three on my list, as well as number five.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 26, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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Bad enough?
Not even close, my friend!
-more extreme weather (devastation)
Speculation, we're not sure how "extreme" we're talking about, and it could well be a small price to pay for the other "goods".
-mass migrations/exodus due to flooding and extreme weather.
As I said above, a small subset of the world's population will be affected, and moving in itself is not a "bad". In fact, the very fact that we have a healthy distribution of people around the planet (with attendant healthy racial/genetic diversity) is a function of earlier global cooling. Migrations tend to be "good" rather than "bad".
-ocean acidification (extinction of many species)
Oh, now you're not a speciesist, are you? For SHAME!
The fact that some species die off is not a "bad"! It's been happening forever, coupled with the emergence of new ones.
The fact that WE like the oceans with the PH they have doesn't mean that it's "bad" for them to change.
Let's not be so species-centric in our thinking! New species galore! Bring it!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Mar 26, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
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Absolutely. Good list, Moose! We're almost exactly on the same page.
I don't find global warming so pressing, simply because I'm not yet convinced that it's really a bad thing. To me, the mere fact that some subset of people don't like some of its effects isn't very moving.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Mar 26, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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wow. on first read, i'm in complete agreement with your list MB1! even down to the order...
how come we end up arguing about the little stuff so much? :)
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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Mar 26, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
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It's hard to find a more honest list than that one that MadBolter1 posted.
Well done, Sir.
Your intellect is rapier.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 26, 2016 - 08:20pm PT
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Well ,I threw the hook out and it was taken.I knew it would.
My response to escopeta's statement was;
"You are right,Climate Change is hardly a threat,a non-starter if YOU will...."[sic]
Sarcasm.[the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.]
Now you all have shown your colors.
Should we start a new "Climate Change Deniers" thread?
"I find it difficult to take seriously someone that considers climate change to be the number one threat our country faces. "
What was really said:[Click to View YouTube Video]
"Oh, and how global warming is all so BAD remains a huge open question."
No, it does not.Period.
I am going to school at Cornell right now for Environmental Engineering[CO2 mitigation and renewables are the main studies at this point],I have a 35 year old degree in Geology as well.
We could go on and on about this ,but ,I will respect the owners of this site and not.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Mar 26, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
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Global warming might not be a bad thing? Wow. Just, wow.
Is it ok if we try to slow it down?
Can we trust scientists? I mean the ones who don't work for the oil industry?
Wilbeer, you're going to Cornell? Yikes, you're a lot smarter than me. Not fair.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 26, 2016 - 09:18pm PT
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We could go on and on about this ,but ,I will respect the owners of this site and not.
And frankly, what would be he point? He's a smart enough guy to have heard what scientists are saying. He'd rather listen to what he wants to listen to.
It's not worth the aggravation.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 26, 2016 - 09:25pm PT
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Agreed.Indeed.
Crankster,One course at a time ,through their Co-Op.
This semesters course;4 credit hours,6,800.00 dollars.
Unsubsidized.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Mar 26, 2016 - 09:50pm PT
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I will work with anyone.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Mar 27, 2016 - 12:22am PT
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I like MBs list as fundamental root problems that trigger many other problems.
One aspect which is implicitly tied to MBs list but I think needs to be articulated more and perhaps treated as a separate thing: technology and automation are accelerating the divide between rich and poor. More automation means fewer jobs, and that changing supply/demand balance means people will work in worse circumstances for lower pay. Many more unemployed people, hopeless people, will be drawn to distracting vices like drugs, and increase crime for basic life necessities like food, but also to pay for the drugs needed to cope with how shitty life is.
Meanwhile, the owners of the automation technologies will reduce their expenses (fewer employees) but collect the same income, and get more rich from increased profits. Until there are not enough people with jobs to be consumers that buy the products! But companies are multinational, and they can be like swarms of locusts that take everything that can be taken from one place, then pick up and move to the next market when any given society is destroyed.
This is really a dilemma for me, as automation is my type of work that seems like a good thing, but with our world as it is, I can't help but see the negative consequences. I'm just a cog in a machine, part of a bigger system dynamic. I don't see anyone stopping the pursuit of automation- the genie is already out of the bottle, we can't undo technology. It just seems like a fated civilization cycle that we are doomed to play out until revolution. Unless we can get a government that figures out how to distribute the benefits of automation for all of society (e.g. through taxation of rich to benefit the poor) instead of just letting these benefits accrue to the few who own the technology.
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