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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 11, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
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Tom, seems you'd be in a position to know, are we talking a rock form or an alien ark and NASA has been hiding the high res shots of that area because of it...? - Healyje
i honestly don't know
i will tell you that if i did know, i would tell you
i don't have any direct personal experience in this area; although i have seen a few things in the air and at sea for which i have no easy explanation
and i knew about the SR-71 and F-117 about a decade before either was public knowledge. i was told about them by other rock climbers
i have done a great deal of study in this area of unusual phenomena and know others who have studied much more. i wouldn't spend my time studying these areas if i didn't think it is very important to know
i do know three of the men who walked on the moon, but they haven't told me anything one way or another about this or similar things
i have seen enough evidence to know that our level of understanding of many things is very low and we have much to learn
and so i will share a few of my personal opinions
my opinions are only my best guesses or else my thinking that someone else's observations hold some merit
NASA space programs are much smaller than DoD space programs
NASA does keep a lot of confidential information, but i don't know why that is, except for requirements imposed by DoD
i have not been exposed to any 'NASA Confidential Information' (ITAR sensitive) where that information was not rather easy to figure out or otherwise widely publicly available if someone such as a foreign government cared to go looking for it
i think Klimmer's research into these subjects is quite extensive and interesting; whether or not i may agree with his conclusions and speculations
i don't think the jokers and degraders attacking Klimmer are well informed or acting wisely
i do know from personal experience that governments and other large organizations have things to cover up that are discreditable beyond most people's imaginations
this is why there is so much secrecy, disinformation and coverup
i have been told by a black programs insider that nothing NASA does is anything but a coverup. i don't think that is entirely true; but i have seen direct evidence of some truth in that.
i think that NASA also serves an important role as a place to stockpile expertise and creative ideas that are sometimes applied to the insider programs
Colonel John B. Alexander PhD created an insider group to study the UFO phenomena and he is frequently tagged by UFO researchers as one of the most knowlegeable insiders on the subject. He wrote a very interesting book published last year titled 'UFOs, myths, conspiracies, and realities'
He debunks a lot of commonly repeated myths and conspiracy theories. He also lists a substantial number of UFO observations that convince him there is more going on than is generally accepted.
There is little doubt that some unidentified flying objects are real, three-dimensional solid objects, which are physically present and observable. To support their tangible attributes they are registered on a variety of sensor systems. They are seen by competent witnesses, photographed, have radar returns, are captured on FLIRs, leave radiation traces, and sometimes are spotted by surveillance satellites...ranging from small orbs of light to gigantic material craft miles in diameter... - John Alexander
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 11, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
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Ok, that was an extensive if somewhat indirect answer to a very specific question. Maybe a different tact. Do you have access to any imagery at those coordinates which would have substantially higher resolution than those already posted here? Thanks.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 11, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
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There is little doubt that some unidentified flying objects are real, three-dimensional solid objects, which are physically present and observable. To support their tangible attributes they are registered on a variety of sensor systems. They are seen by competent witnesses, photographed, have radar returns, are captured on FLIRs, leave radiation traces, and sometimes are spotted by surveillance satellites...ranging from small orbs of light to gigantic material craft miles in diameter... - John Alexander
He was doing alright until he got to this...
khanom: I mean if one accepts that there could be other sentient beings "out there", then why not?
Distance is 'why not'. Given the distances involved, interstellar travel is essentially time travel which, in turn means they've discovered how to source and harness near infinite amounts of energy. Any assertion the Earth has been visited makes the assumption that some advance civilization conquered time travel, discovered the Earth existed, and then decided it was worth visiting. And while I believe there are untold numbers of planets with intelligent life, I think the odds of interstellar travel by those societies are essentially nil (and that anyone would think we're all that interesting equally non-existent).
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 11, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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Do you have access to any imagery at those coordinates which would have substantially higher resolution than those already posted here?
Perhaps, but I would have to spend some time at it. It's probably just as easy for you.
High resolution LRO imagery is being released on no particular schedule that I am aware of, and you also have access to this.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/main/index.html
There is a building at NASA Ames where a team is going through lunar imagery and producing high quality compilations. I go there once in a while and have casual acquaintances. They are excited about their very tedious work, but so far as I know, not the kind of excitement that a massive ark would generate.
http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/tech/asr/intelligent-robotics/planetary/moon/
I am also a colleague of the NASA WorldWind project that publicly shares very detailed geo-referenced earth blue marble data and lunar Clementine imagery
http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/moon.html
However you need to realize that the subject of UFOs is just never mentioned or discussed by NASA people.
People outside the NASA community seem to assume that NASA employees know all about the subject and just aren't talking. My experience is that NASA employees don't know all about the subject and just don't talk about it at all. It's like an embarrassing family secret that no one ever mentions.
I am not sure why. Probably it is considered a career limiting subject. You have to realize that NASA budgets are under constant heavy political pressure. Note that most of the human flight program centers are in the bible belt states and a lot of my colleagues are fundamentalist Christians. And a certain strong Alabama senator pretty much controls NASA budgets.
Perhaps this subconsciously also falls into the DoD limitations on what we can talk about. NASA centers are guarded by extremely serious security personnel who can easily make your life very miserable. As a member of the NASA SAR team for ten years, I have known the Ames security chief and his program manager wife pretty well. But there are subjects i wouldn't think of asking him about.
Likewise the Ames center director is an astronomer and air force general who used to be in charge of the DoD center that tracks all objects in near earth space. He was also program director for the Clementine mission that produced a lot of the best lunar imagery before LRO. You can suppose he knows about stuff, if anyone does. I have shared a lot of wine with him, but again, there are topics that are not appropriate to discuss if i want to stay friends. I respect these people and think they would find a way to let me know if they were sure of something that I need to know.
Perhaps this is hard to understand. Think of it this way: Imagine you are in charge of protecting our national security by detecting and tracking any inbound ICBMs. Then you find yourself tracking large unknown objects moving at unfathomable courses and speeds, and that hover over your missile silos and disable the warheads... This doesn't become a subject for casual dinner conversation...
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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May 11, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
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good post Tom - thanks
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 11, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
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Distance is 'why not'. Given the distances involved, interstellar travel is essentially time travel which, in turn means they've discovered how to source and harness near infinite amounts of energy. Any assertion the Earth has been visited makes the assumption that some advance civilization conquered time travel, discovered the Earth existed, and then decided it was worth visiting. And while I believe there are untold numbers of planets with intelligent life, I think the odds of interstellar travel by those societies are essentially nil (and that anyone would think we're all that interesting equally non-existent).
hmmm...and what if these assumed creatures evolved ahead of us on this planet, perhaps during the age of dinosaurs...just speculating (as you are)
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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May 11, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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Much of the thinking here regarding interstellar travel is predicated on beings of a form and existence similar to ours. It's possible this is not even the case, nor is it likely we can imagine what form they could be. Nor would we recognize them if we encountered these beings.
Stop torturing yourselves regarding what we are not even capable of imagining.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 12, 2012 - 01:07am PT
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Nice post Tom C
Undoubtedly, we're all wrong
Some of us are wrong on the side of the the majority status quo view, and others on various perspectives on what's out there.
Best to learn things and keep an open mind, really really open, but that also means open to "that didn't happen" and "that was a hoax"
Peace
Karl
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 12, 2012 - 01:25am PT
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Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein
UFOs are real! With no prevarication or qualification of terms, there are physical objects of unknown origin that do transit our universe. The evidence that supports those statements is simply overwhelming. That evidence includes both hard data collected via multispectral sensors and from high-quality eye-witnesses that are neither misreporting facts nor delusional. Determining what these objects are, let alone the question of origin, is another matter. There are no simple solutions that fit all the facts.
This books differs from all others written about the subject because it details a personal exploration of the topic in ways that no other researcher has been able to accomplish. What is important and unique are the details of direct interactions with senior officials from many agencies - and finding that no one was responsible for this topic anywhere in the U.S. Government. That fact is very significant and runs counter to conventional wisdom. This book addresses those problems so that the reader can understand the government's role in UFOs as it really is; not the way many people believe it should be.
 Colonel John B. Alexander PhD |
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2012 - 03:03am PT
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Tom: hmmm...and what if these assumed creatures evolved ahead of us on this planet, perhaps during the age of dinosaurs...just speculating (as you are)
I don't find there to be anything speculative about interstellar distances or what that means in terms of time. Quite the contrary, wishing they don't exist or thinking they are surmountable is what's highly speculative.
Positing that an advanced, pre-human species allowed our species to florish and overrun the planet like so many rats and now just fly aimlessly around in a astounding variety of secretly manufactured ships seems, biologically speaking, wildly speculative even beyond time travel.
bmcad: Nor would we recognize them if we encountered these beings.
Yet you're sure they take the form of creatures that still have fur - something evolution here on Earth eliminated due to the inherent problems associated with fur in cranial cooling.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 12, 2012 - 07:14am PT
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Hey, I just wanna wish God a Happy F*#king Mothers Day.
That was a swell picture in the 4 Mothers day topic.
If God chooses to bark on the fudding moon, it's not like you can change Her mind. She could have gone to Half Dome with Her sh#t. Then this would all be f*#king moot.
Halo and good-bye.
MFM
"Guardian angel, guardian dear..."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 12, 2012 - 09:04am PT
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I don't find there to be anything speculative about interstellar distances or what that means in terms of time. Quite the contrary, wishing they don't exist or thinking they are surmountable is what's highly speculative.
We've been studying physics for few thousands years and been good at it for a few hundred. What do civilizations learn and how do they evolve when they have millions of years at it?
Most the "Laws" and buidling blocks of things we believed a hundred or two hundred years ago have turned to not to be so basic and transcended by other realities like sub-atomic particles and relativity. Your "Assumption" is that those newer view aren't themselves limited and that there are principles that even transcend them
Peace
Karl
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 12, 2012 - 09:54am PT
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Pastoral by Beethoven. We learned to like that right away, my Wawa friend.
Being a generous man, when I can be, I give the dinos some credit for savvy.
Extend the credit to civvy. Lization.
They were probably cold-blooded, but that doesn't say anything of what they thought or maybe felt.
They certainly had a few million years to do something with those brains.
Are we warm-bloods any different, needing what we think we need, than they?
Do we need God, man? The dinos may have invented her; we'll never figure that one out.
Or some of us may think we have, and so we circle the truth over millions of years.
What's gained is inevitably lost, apparently. I don't see any copies of the Daily Dino lying around or in a morgue.
We certainly don't have millions of years, not the way we are heading.
There's always hope, however. One guy, the last guy with two quarters left in his pocket could call God and she could save us from ourselves. With enough faith. And enough quarters.
Got little faith anymore. Ain't wasting my quarters.
Just had to bark, friends. Peace. Rruff-ruff.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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May 12, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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ok... so I'm watching Ancient Aliens as a back up program while there is a commercial playing on Billy the Exterminator.... who is the suave-ass dude with the unreal hair-do (or don't) and a Greek-ish name? Just what exactly is his deal??? Man I wish I had a wig like that going.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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Karl: We've been studying physics for few thousands years and been good at it for a few hundred. What do civilizations learn and how do they evolve when they have millions of years at it?
If we studied the Moon or Alpha Centauri for another million years is it your expectation that something about the distance to either would change significantly? Once again, there are likely always billions of planets with intelligent life at any give moment, but the idea that by being good students and studying long enough any of them will find a magic wand to short-circuit distance and time is beyond wildly speculative.
But even if at any given moment there were one, or a million such time-traveling societies, it would mean Earth's are common as dirt and there would be nothing whatsoever special enough about us to warrant expending the energy it would take to visit us.
And even if some 'advanced' society were stupid enough to decide the Earth was interesting enough to bother visiting do you really think that would yield the thousands of different UFO forms claimed by the Klimmerati? Do you really think someone who could make the trip, and brought with them even an armada of varietal craft forms, would then just occasionally joy ride around in them decade after decade?
And we won't even get into what the ridiculous array of UFO sighting characteristics of speed, light and heat say relative to the way our incredibly energy-efficient alien visitors expend energy volleying around our atmosphere. But c'mon, even if you allow for such aliens, assume they have a sick fetish about the Earth, and that the most 'credible' UFO 'data' are real - then our alien visitors are then unavoidably, and in no uncertain terms, complete f*#king idiots.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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May 12, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
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Positing that an advanced, pre-human species allowed our species to florish and overrun the planet like so many rats and now just fly aimlessly around in a astounding variety of secretly manufactured ships seems, biologically speaking, wildly speculative even beyond time travel.
The notion is called Directed Panspermia and is the speculation of Nobel prize winners, written long before supertopo
You've lost track of who and what you are arguing against you've been swimming upstream so hard so long. Now you are drowning Healyje
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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May 12, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
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...then our alien visitors are then unavoidably, and in no uncertain terms, complete f*#king idiots. "
yeah, that's why they created us like this
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 12, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
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tom: ...yeah, that's why they created us like this.
Ah, then I guess I'm forced to take that as you actually thinking the most 'credible' of the UFO 'data', taken as a whole, is coherent enough to say something logical or even vaguely rational about the morphology, material, flight, light, or heat characteristics involved.
Good luck with that...
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WBraun
climber
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May 12, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
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The stooopid gross materialists are so fuking arrogant thinking their eyeballs are the only ones that can see anything.
If the gross mundane materialists can't see something with their limited defective eyeballs they think it doesn't exist.
The gross materialists are all defective and everything they create is defective.
All their measuring instruments are defective like them.
All foolish rascals with no good brains ......
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
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Tom,
Thanks for saying things about what you know. You certainly have incredible opportunities to talk with a great deal of people that could know the truth and probably do know. What incredible pressure for them all to be quiet. Secrets can be kept. Job security can make a man or woman keep their mouth shut, no doubt. But even our NASA heroes have opened up: Werner Von Braun, Gordon Cooper, John Glenn, Edgar Mitchell, even Buzz Aldrin has said very curious things over the years, as well as Neil Armstrong.
I would read DARK MISSION: NASA's Secret History by Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara. Something strange does in-fact go on at NASA and JPL.
Yes, this is the Christian, Biblical point of view . . .
See videos, presentations, and books by:
Chuck Missler, PhD
Michael Heiser, PhD
David Flynn
They were here millions, billions of years (13.7B) before we were. They witnessed the Singularity, The Big Bang.
They occupied our Solar System long before we were ever here on Earth. They were the Sons of GOD. Then Lucifer, the most beautiful among them thought himself better than GOD, and wanted to be worshiped as GOD and led astray 33% of the Sons of GOD. They are the fallen ones. They are The Fallen Angels. They are full of lies and deceit. They warped the reality of GOD's plan, and deceitfully lied and made mankind believe they were GODs from significant constellations in our Universe, and went among many civilations throughout our history showing themselves as ET GODs. They aren't GODs. They are Sons of GOD. They were created and are similar to GOD, but they are not GOD. GOD warned us about them. Even as incredibly intelligent and powerful as they are, they can not create life. That is why they need DNA from mankind and abductions continue. They are coming back. "As the Days of Noah so shall be the coming of the Son of Man be." The Fallen Angels were mating with beautiful Earthly women and taking multiple wives of their choosing in the days of Noah. They also led mankind astray and taught us things we weren't supposed to know, like war, among many other things. Paradise was lost.
We can get it back. There is a plan by GOD. Jesus Christ showed it to us, showed us the way, and made it possible by giving his life for us.
There are things on this Earth that aren't explainable and couldn't have been done by man alone. There are artifacts, some even massive in size on The Moon and on Mars of a period of time gone by when the Sons of GOD walked among "The Stones of Fire." Read and study The Bible and The Book of Enoch to know more.
I'm sure our US government knows the truth of the matter and there would be many reasons to keep it secret from a very ill-conceived deceptive point of view. Even The Brookings Institute told our Government to hide the truth if we ever found it. It would be too hard for mankind to handle the truth more or less was their point of view. It would be too disruptive. NASA has abided by this policy. There is a very important scene in the movie Space Odyssey 2001 that directly addresses this.
Yes, perhaps to the very rich powerful and corrupt elite it would be too disruptive if we knew the full truth.
Prologue from Michael Heiser's very good novel based on truth called The Facade . . .
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