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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Dec 28, 2007 - 08:52am PT
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Like a bird rising out of Pheonix, Arizona!!!1
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goatboy smellz
climber
colorado
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:07am PT
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Less chit chat
more tap tap.
~~~~~~~
maysho speaks the truth.
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Meaty
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:20am PT
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"I don't know much else about Dimitri......." Yeah Nefarius, you don't know sh#t, you got that right!
Hey Nefarius, this is the last line of your post, maybe you should regard the words you type you sacklicking bitch.
"Maybe this is why history books are more propaganda than actual history a lot of the time."
Oh yeah!! You wouldn't know history if it slapped you in the face. What you posted about me is pure propaganda you dipsh#t.
I had nothing to do with shitting on those ropes, nothing. I wasn't there but I surely know who did those things. Go crawl back up the as#@&%e you were born out of you pathetic piece of sh#t. Why don't you post the names of the people that actually did what you claim instead of speculative bullsh#t, f*#k off Nefarius! You said something about character? You've got none.
edit: One of the two people that did sh#t on those ropes posts here on a somewhat regular basis, and if he had balls he would set the record straight, I was NOT involved in any way whatsoever and for you to just spew lies and innuendo about me shows you're an ignorant jackass. Piss off Nefarius.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:22am PT
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If you examine the point at which this thread was revived, you’ll notice that – specifically – it’s me who brought this thread back, not Mark. Further, Mark is simply and legitimately responding to comments made about events involving a FA he completed and a route he and his partner designed, now as it would seem in each of the posts made in the past regarding this topic.
Ed - That such a large number of posts have been made by Mark also on topics pertaining to events he was involved with is irrelevant, and does not diminish the validity of his statements. It most certainly does not call into question his involvement with this forum community as a whole.
“My guess is that you don't have much need for the STForum community, just as I have come to understand that you didn't have much need for the Yosemite Valley community at the time you did WOS.”
That’s about as contrived as saying that if she weighs the same as a duck, she’s made of wood, and therefore a witch! Your “guess” doesn’t have any reasonable backing evidence, and is ludicrously set up to draw lines between two communities and circumstances that are as comparable as parrots and Richard Simmons. I hear they both have an affinity for wearing feathers, but that’s an aside.
And Maysho, what does anyone who has been slandered, suppressed, and had their character called into question on a public scale for decades want? To let the truth be heard. Don’t act like it’s the result of some deep-rooted personal problem that he responds legitimately to comments made about events that directly involve him.
“People don't give a sh#t about your climb because in the end a piece of rock doesn't matter if you are not a human being.
So, you didn't give a sh#t what the climbing community thought about you. You cared what your world - your religous world - thought about you.
Well in the end that is what you have got.Respect in your world.
But zero respect in the climbing world even though your skills are obviously comparable to the very best.”
Radical, glad you found a magic window to see into the souls of people you don’t even know, though I doubt you’ll be able to usher in a new era of peace between our world leaders with it, given that it is – much like your assumptions – cracked beyond repair. About the only accuracy in your tirade is that yes – Mark has earned a great deal of respect by a great many people, but as should be painfully obvious by now it had nothing to do with WoS. Mark was as respected a teacher as he was while I was a student due to the fact that he cared both about the students he taught and about the subject matter he taught them – and that he went to great lengths to never compromise his commitment to either. So how about you try a nice cup of shut the f*#k up about people you don’t know a thing about? It’s bitter, but then, hell, what around here isn’t?
I don't know. Maybe it was impulsive of me to post my account of Mark’s good character in this thread, but damn if it doesn’t appear those who want to defame and demean WoS and their climbers are the ones who won’t let go.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:02pm PT
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I was going to respond to your email, meaty, but figured why not cut and paste it here since you also display your tough-guy mentality here too... Or is it Kindergarten charm?
Your response to me would really suggest to more level persons otherwise. Sounds like you have some anger management issues. More likely internet swole syndrome. Regardless, you might want to suggest to your peers, who were there at the time, to not say it was you, if that's the case. More specifically, you were singled out as the shitter, not necessarily as a chopper.
I could, honestly, give a f*#k whether or not is was you or any of your jackass friends. With all of you f*#ktards running around taunting them and trying to lay claim to being the tough guys that chopped and sh#t, it's no wonder that things got confused in the end. I'd be surprised, at this point, if any of you - other than those who were at the scene, know who actually did it. I doubt, whether it was you or not, that the persons involved will ever come forth. Pretty typical inner-fat-child-bully behavior. Too bad you, or friends, or whoever didn't sh#t on the ropes of a couple of guys who didn't have as much character as Mark and Richard, who would have dished out the ass whipping that was deserved.
Cheers!
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Meaty
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:06pm PT
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Yep, I am a charm school graduate you dipsh#t.
What part of me NOT having anything to do with this incident does your dipshit self NOT understand! Piss off Nefarius, you haven't a clue who did this and for you to post up pure lies and innuendo is beyond pathetic because I NEVER made any claims about chopping or shitting on ropes.
Do yo know who actually did this stuff?? No?!!?..... you obviously don't! Well I do jackass so leave me out.
Nefarius, you're a pathetic bastard, I wouldn't call one of the people that did this a friend, so keep drooling you're baseless assertions, that seems to be the norm for some here. Again maybe the person that posts here regularly could get some sack and explain that I had NOTHING at all to do with this incident.I doubt it!
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:23pm PT
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Ed, Peter, and Riley,
By and large I’m pretty puzzled by what to say as the logical end of what you expressed is rather perplexing.
Ed: “it's been 9 months since your last post here...the vast majority have been responding in one way or the other to topics on WOS.”
Wow, that’s a point I never thought about. Actually, I do post here, just under the identity gunsmoke, my all time favorite boulder problem (I hope that revelation doesn’t get me kicked of the Taco.) A check shows 25 posts this year. So the Taco has been getting my input and insight into climbing beyond WoS, you just didn’t know it.
Peter: “MSmith, What is it that you need right now?”
Peter, feel free to call me Mark. I don’t think I need anything at this point other than the ability to freely speak when spoken to. Is that within your scheme of things? I do react and should have the full right to be expected to react when … slander is posted about me and/or facts about me or my climbs are falsely represented, as was the case here.
Peter: “still there is seemingly nothing that can be said that will make you feel better. Only you can get over this. How are you going to do that?”
First, it’s not your problem or anyone else’s to make me feel better. And what makes you think that I don’t feel okay? Does feeling better mean not having any negative internal reactions to anything said about me? Also, does the tenor of the recent posts look to you like an attempt by the community that would lead a reasonable person to “feel better”?
The implication of what you wrote, an implication I’m sure isn’t intended, is that I can’t or shouldn’t reply to my own slandering. Here’s what I mean. I didn’t restart this thread or have any need or urge to restart it. No glee welled up in my heart when it restarted and I didn’t jump in to post. Werner sees the thread and himself has nothing novel to say (who does after 1000 posts?), but hops in anyways and uses a bunch of terms like zealously dramatized…private little world of controversy... physiological wreck…fanatical aid…you get the picture. Fine. While a response to that should be accepted by the community as reasonable, I didn’t respond to those things. But Werner goes beyond the hyper-charged words, he states that we weren't really under any pressure from the Valley community, just from two detached persons in a single event. If this is true, then the angst I have expressed on the Taco is way misplaced, a proposition Werner all but spells out. Again, the implication of your post is that I shouldn’t worry about this and should remain silent while the Taco godfather has the last, unrebutted, word.
Peter: “So here we are today, on this forum, Werner, (and I would like to think myself as well) is one of the more thoughtful and caring members of that community of old.”
Riley: “People like …Werner are beloved not because of the routes they put up. It is because they can say "Hi", and mean it and not come off as an arrogent jerk or someone who thinks he is better than everybody else.”
Peter and Riley, there is a Biblical saying that goes roughly like this, ”What altruism is there when you do good to those who do good to you? Even lowlifes do that.” No, I’m not calling you lowlifes. But I am saying that to call Werner “one of the more thoughtful and caring members of that community” who says “Hi” [to you] means nothing to me because that thought and care does not seem to extend one inch past Werner’s own community. There are those on the Taco who are in Werner’s community who have reached out caringly beyond it to me. But Werner is not among them.
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
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Who's up for bashing Balwin and Cooper?! Anyone?
Better yet......Batso?
I don't know any of these gentleman but I sure respect them for their vision. And truly, Richard and Mark had a vision....not to appeal to the Style Gods of the time. Although the route sounds terrifying to me, I wouldn't mind trying at least the first pitch to see first hand, Richard and Mark's vision unfold. Nevermind, shitting my pants in the process (and hopefully not on my own rope as well). :/
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 12:48pm PT
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Whatever, dude. I'm not going to have a pissing (or shitting) contest with you. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Maybe the persons who suggested it was you were so affected by your obvious charm that they chose to blame you. Again, I don't really care. Just as you choose not to out the persons you say did the act, neither will I out the persons who personally told me it was you. I will say they are very well known persons in the community though.
Again, I don't care if it was you or not. I simply stated what I was told by well-known persons in the community who were in the valley at the time. Obviously, I don't *know* who it was... Only the persons who were actually there and witnessed the act know that. But I do know what I was told and repeated it here. If it's wrong, that's their bad. Again, maybe there's a reason for that. However, not knowing you, at all, nor really ever having heard of you, except for maybe your name being mentioned here on the Taco a whole 2 or 3 times (oh and your single other contribution to ST, which was to call JB a liar), I really have no reason to be "after you" or whatever you want to think/portray. Maybe if you weren't the prick you appear to be in your responses here someone wouldn't be trying to frame you, as you claim.
I said what I was told, you responded, I think we're done.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:02pm PT
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Mark,
Looking at this new turn between old pal Dimitri and Nefwhoever, I vow to not step into this steaming pile again.
I was sincere in my post in saying I am sorry that all happened to you guys, and my clumsily expressed point was how can we move on now. I did not mean to imply that you should not be responsive, and the difference between the tone I got from Werners' post, and what you take as "slander" illustrates the point that the sensitivity is still so high, that it is better to just stay silent.
So, to the original post that got this sorry story going again, kudos to you Mark for being a great teacher! That is what I am always working to be as well, and is far more meaningful than being good at hooking, or part of the in crowd, or adept at forum scrapping or really anything else.
Peter
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Magnum
Boulder climber
fresno, ca
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:26pm PT
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hey Meaty, did it come out all steamy, back in 1982?
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mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:35pm PT
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hey Meaty, did it come out all steamy, back in 1982?
HHHHHAAAAA!!
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Meaty
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:53pm PT
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"I said what I was told, you responded, I think we're done."
So you're such a putz you believe everything you're told, nuff said about your feeble brain! What you really did was just come right out and slander me with false information and then just stand by that baseless drool, f*#k off!
This is so typical of a jackass like you comes on this forum and posts innuendo that you were "told". You're full of sh#t and you know it. It isn't over you dumbass. Scoll up dumbass and look at a post from Werner, he mentions two people, I am not one of them.
And Magnum, piss off as well. You jackasses just might be surprised who did sh#t on those ropes.
There was a time when I thought maybe it would be good to apologize to the WOS crew, but after this innuendo I could only express myself the same way as before. Stupid route by a couple idiots, piss off.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 28, 2007 - 01:59pm PT
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Why knott just spill the beans for fuçk's sake?
We love a good soap opera around here...
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Meaty
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 02:03pm PT
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Why knott just spill the beans for fuçk's sake?
We love a good soap opera around here...
Just hold on, it just might happen very soon unless the person that did this gets the sack to admit it. And like I said before, I doubt it.. you know who it is!!! He did a slide show not very long ago and many here at ST attended. LOL
I gotta go, I have a life.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 02:11pm PT
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The guy who actually sh'it on their ropes I personally ran him out of the SAR site and the Valley.
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2007 - 02:12pm PT
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Peter,
A generous response, and do I recall what you said (a year or so ago), even if it wasn't in my mind earlier today. Best wishes on the new year.
--Mark
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 28, 2007 - 02:13pm PT
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Meaty wrote:
I gotta go, I have a life.
I do knott have a life, and don't mind saying so.
I await the truth with baited breath!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 02:24pm PT
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"There was a time when I thought maybe it would be good to apologize to the WOS crew, but after this innuendo I could only express myself the same way as before."
Interesting statement... On all kinds of fronts.
Most importantly, however, is that what I say, or really anyone else here says, has anything to do with Richard Jensen or Mark Smith. So, for you to withhold an apology to them (for what, one can only imagine/assume) is pretty spineless and pathetic. You're simply using things/persons unrelated as an excuse not to.
As far as the other folks mentioned... I'm not going to go back and re-read the thread again or any of the various threads related to the topic. The whole thing has simply gotten old and there are better things to do with my time. I do remember Bill Russell was mentioned a while ago. Someone respected in the community and posting here regularly said he was also involved. BFD.
Really, it doesn't matter f*#kall if any of us know who it was. I don't think anyone really cares or thinks a public apology is warranted. If something were to happen, the only thing that would matter would be a direct apology to Richard and Mark themselves. Anything else would be pointless, really.
And to put it so callously as yourself, since your only contributions to this forum have been to attack myself and anyone saying anything you don't like in this thread, and JB in your other "contribution" to the forum, with a bunch of childish name calling and temper tantrums..... In a language you might understand, why don't you f*#k off, you worthless sack?
Schmutzvink said "But I think lots of people took credit."
Kinda what I said above. Also concurs with what Mark and Richard have both said. Everyone wanted to be responsible back in the day. Funny how no one wants to be responsible now. But it also shows how or why folks might be saying certain people did, who didn't. Again, I don't really care. And to finally agree with Meaty on *something*, I have better things to do than worry about it.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 28, 2007 - 03:41pm PT
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Boys, boys!
One of the things I really love about Mark is his Heart of Passion. In a world where there are so many who are "Plain Vanilla", it is refreshing and invigorating to meet a man like Mark who is not afraid to be real, and to stand up for what he believes in, who doesn't hide behind a fake identity, and who is willing to take his lumps.
I really enjoyed my time with Mark and Richard, and what I can tell you guys here at Supertopo [who have not had the chance to meet them in person] is that they are both very cool guys, and definitely Class Acts. I do knott say this about too many people, either, but these guys have proved it for the most part by trying their best to show grace under intense pressure.
As Men of Passion though, they have a tendency to rant. And while the therapeutic benefits of ranting cannot be understated, sometimes you end up shooting yourself in the foot because you react so hard about something you care so much about. Wings of Steel was a life-altering event for Mark and Richard - they have taken much crap over it, and while there are many who will never agree with them, I think most of us have come to some sort of understanding of what they did and why, even if it is that we "agree to disagree". But it is a very sore spot on their hearts - and if you touch a sore spot on your body, sometimes you over-react. I hope Mark and Richard can let this stuff go, and try not to rant too much, especially to people with fake user names. I want you also to know that they don't rant in person, they are cool.
Identifying alleged perpetrators on an internet forum is lame. Real Men work out their differences in private. If the person who shat on their ropes is reading this, I want you to know that Mark and Richard are men who believe in forgiveness and reconciliation, as do I incidentally. If you were to approach them with an "olive branch", I believe they would be willing to talk to you, or meet with you. Time goes by, we hopefully grow up a bit, maybe we can look back on things from the past through new eyes and a heart of compassion? Maybe you regret messing up their ropes? Maybe if you just said, "I think WoS is a lame route and an ethical affront on El Cap, dudes, and I'll always feel that way, but I'm sorry for crapping on your ropes...." it would go a long way towards healing?
I found Wings of Steel to be desperately hard. I had to cheat-stick my way up the first pitch. I couldn't even do all the moves on toprope, the hooking was so hard! To do it on lead on such long runouts over such marginal gear is way too insane for this part-time climber. You've gotta be really dedicated or really psycho or something I'm not. Tom replaced all the bolts and rivets on the first [legit] pitch and I think the second pitch too [I can't recall], so the route is there for anyone to give it a shot, and I hope they do. Fifty foot falls are not a possibility, they are a certainty - you will whip a long way before you eventually figure it out - far too scary for me.
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