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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 10, 2008 - 10:17am PT
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Darwin's masterpiece, Origin of Species, is a great read, and I think presents compelling enough reasoning and evidence to make the "theory of evolution" as near a slam dunk as a theory can get.
With for the most part, armchair reasoning bolstered by a lifetime of observation and research of the natural world, Darwin's elegant theory provides compelling explanations of among the following:
why the the fossil record looks like it does,
the distribution of plants and animals around the world,
how domesticated animals and plants came to be,
why we can naturally classify animals and plants into tree-like structures,
many, many individual zoological phenomenon (like why whales have appendages that look like they were formerly arms, etc.).
It's brilliant how it brings all of these disparate subjects under the umbrella of a single, simple theory of how biology works. Since Darwin, we have found that the earth is much older than previously thought and there's this molecule called DNA that is present in every cell in virually all organisms. Both of these new pieces of evidence bolster the theory. The first gives the whole process a lot more time to work its magic, the second provides the mechanical underpinnings for how it works.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2008 - 10:42am PT
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Unfortunately Darwin missed the single most important item "the soul".
Missing the the root (the soul) makes his entire theory null and void.
In other words his observation was defective and therefore the world has been mislead.
The science of the soul is the single most important element for understanding everything.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jul 10, 2008 - 10:44am PT
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yeah, but it's useful to be able to work on a car, or know where you are.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 10, 2008 - 06:31pm PT
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Newton's elegant theory also provides compelling explanations. But not proof.
So all of science is about explaining things.
What do we do with all these explanations? we push them to provide new knowledge that allows us to explain even more.
What is the "proof" that the explanations agree with our observations? that the results of our experiments and lead us to things we truly did not know without them.
There is much information in the lack of fossils. But there are also, now, many more fossils than in Darwin's time, and largely because the scientist are trying to understand how evolution exists.
My explanation addresses changes within a species, but it is consistent with species divergence too. It is not inconsistent with what is observed. But that is what you get with science.
Newton couldn't give you proof that there was a law of universe gravitation. But the phenomena he observed were consistent with that hypothesis. It is not proof of it.
Do you doubt the law of universal gravitation is true?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 10, 2008 - 06:49pm PT
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There is NO evidence of gravitation.
So called micro-gravity, like when an apple falls to the earth, has no correlate in so called macro-gravity.
Why doesn't the moon fall to earth? It rotates around the earth instead.
Why don't we and our apples rotate around the mountains? It is obvious that it is the invisible hand of God! that holds us and our apples to the earth and keeps the moon revolving around, and not impacting, the earth. There are so many gaps in the gravitational record; meteors for example: some fall and some rotate, but only by the will of God! You cannot prove gravitation!
And don't get me started on Newton the Necromancer!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 10, 2008 - 07:03pm PT
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the fossil record does not tell us that evolution is incorrect.
The fossil record can be interpreted, in the context of evolution, as a way of determining the rate of speciation.
That rate can be compared to what is known about the rate of genetic material, about how fast it has to change, and what has to change (different parts of genetic material change a different rates, that has been studied).
This opened up a lot of interesting research, but the bottom line is that genetic material rates of change are consistent with the fossil record if you assume that the fossil record is the result of evolution.
The fossil record does not disprove evolution.
Do you believe in the universal law of gravitation?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2008 - 07:12pm PT
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Read'em and weep -
[url="http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html" target="new"]Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab[/url]
[url="http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Lenski_affair" target="new"] Conservapedia Lenski affair[/url]
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 10, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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Jody, I'm disappointed.
We can observe differences and changes and adaptations in the same species, and we can see how genetically similar and different other species are, and we can can see ancient species in the fossil record, but according to you seeing all these things is not enough evidence for evolution.
We fall down, but that doesn't PROVE the THEORY of gravitation Jody. Gravitationists interpret it that way, don't fall into their trap.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jul 10, 2008 - 07:35pm PT
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"What about the fact that Darwin repuidiated it later?"
-check your sources, that's stretching it, just a wee bit...
we all live in the lab where evolution works...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 10, 2008 - 07:49pm PT
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Jody, how do you know that what happens to you on the earth is the same as what the sun does to the earth?
What is the equation that governs your trajectory on earth?
x(t) = ½ g t² + v0 t + x0
the equation that governs the trajectory of the earth around the sun is nothing like that... what gives?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 10, 2008 - 08:01pm PT
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You have to integrate the force equation:
F(r) = G M m/r²
where M and m are the masses of the two bodies a distance r apart. The constant G is the gravitational constant.
On earth, the force equation you might guess is:
F = g m
where g is the acceleration of gravity. Notice that this force does not depend on how far away from the earth you jump.
Also, if you jump out of an airplane, you eventually stop accelerating... not what you'd expect from that equation.
What's up with that?
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 10, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
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Gravitationists like to talk about orbits and the Earth traveling around the Sun, but this is all just circular reasoning.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2008 - 09:27pm PT
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You know, this thread has the most posts of any I ever started. I wish it had a lot fewer.
It would probably be improved if there were fewer posts. It wasn't intended to digress into a long discussion of evolution.
Ed has been remarkably patient and informative, though it's pretty hard to make any headway against those whose essential argument is "I believe that" or "god says that" or "the bible says that, and is complete". Different world views.
Wanda seems to be having fun, anyway - though she hasn't hooked anyone yet.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 10, 2008 - 09:34pm PT
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Mighty Hiker, How 'bout, "it works for me" which somewhere in the primal (now sludge, no longer) soup was lost. How bout if a person's life is revived, sustained and changed for something they never thought possible in an incredibly great way?
Jesus and his words worked for me. What can I say? Only my life is proof.
Lynners
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jul 10, 2008 - 09:35pm PT
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There is no gravity, the earth sucks.
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andanother
climber
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Jul 10, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
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The last few pages of this thread are nothing short of outstanding! A bunch of people throwing around opinions as if they are facts. And of course all of the real facts are getting ignored.
I wonder if this is how the Bible was written. They guys who got their writings published in The Bible were the only ones stubborn enough to keep arguing after everyone else went home. They just kept repeating their opinions enough times until they became “facts”.
That would certainly explain why it contradicts itself on just about every issue.
Keep up the good work, fellas. I’m sure you’ll be able to convince the other people that your opinion is right. Just give it more time.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jul 10, 2008 - 10:01pm PT
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bc and andanother, why is what i say so ignorable? I thought everyone's life was a life that needed to be considered. I have not been arguing, whining etc. ...just stating a simple proven fact in my life. Smiles. Lynne
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WandaFuca
Gym climber
San Fernando Lamas
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Jul 10, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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Proof is for mathematics.
Right and wrong is for chopping bolts(right) and rap bolting(wrong).
For the natural world we have theories. Theories are not "right" or "wrong", and they are not "proven" or "disproven".
Evolution theory is a well-substantiated explanation of the OBSERVATIONS of the genetic relations between species, and scientists continue to have experimental DATA to support their OBSERVATIONS.
Theories are useful. Blight and Lynne and others might say that religion is useful.
Some religious people can accomodate evolution theory whithin their worldview, and see both the theory and faith as "true".
Some religious people need very definite boundaries between right and wrong, and they demand definite proof (which is never enough, no matter how much is provided) of anything which contradicts their literalist interpretation of their religion, and threatens their rigid worldview, which to them is self-evident and requires no proof, nor a scrap of real evidence.
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