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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: In the old days our people had no education. All their wisdom and knowledge came to them from dreams. They tested their dreams and in that way learned their own strength. - Ojibwa Elder.
Geeh Joe....we now have the intartnet...where you been?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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And 36v lithium batteries. No doubt about it Bob - these days you can get both strength and the batteries to go with it over the internet.
(Bob, just doing my part to get us to 300 at this point...)
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WBraun
climber
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DMT -- "Dawn Wall all over again"
Most people here have never done an early ascent of the Dawn wall so they don't really know. Harding went berzerk up there, I think he lost it near the end.
He drilled rivets next to perfect A1 cracks, I was nailing along when suddenly I see rivets right next to the A1 placements I was standing on.
Porter had previously after Royals ascent chopped a few of them also but still many rivets survived because they were almost invisible to see.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat wrote: Crowbar, tuning fork, hammer, anything else?
Jody's evil twin.
Diet, start working out and stop drinking beer. Good place to start.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
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Question: Is it ok to rap bolt now?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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You bet, go for it.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
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Ok. So if I first aid a route ground up, can I then rap and place more bolts to make it a safe route?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Yep.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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So Werner, I don't remember enough details of the Dawn Wall story to know if any of it involved rapping, but seems to me not much of it did.
Some of the attitude here seems to be that even those rivit placements next to A1 cracks are better than something placed on rap, solely because they were placed ground up.
And on a separate note, this business about a film does bother me. In some ways, this makes it more like Dean's climb of Delicate Arch. I'd have been OK with that if Dean had done it with less publicity, and I guess I'd have better feelings about this if it was clear that Doug and Sean's goal was simply to find the best route up a beautiful piece of stone.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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This debate is such a good one because I think a lot of folks hold the same ethics
as I; ground-up is the way it goes.
To answer my own question, do I climb and enjoy routes put up in less than perfect
style? Hell yes I do!! However, the style of the FA is always in the back of my mind.
It *does* make a difference.
Certainly Growing Up was not a step forward in style. It was an attempt however.
I know what Sean did before he broke out the ropes at the top. And he didn't rap
in before he climbed to the top of the arch, from the ground (and attempt a couple
of other lines on the face too boot).
[Ed. In other words, they did not start by going to the top.]
That said, would the route be as good if they forged ahead without the shenanigans?
Is there a point where the quality of a route trumps style?
Will others not climb Growing Up simply because the top half was previewed, then
rap-bolted? My bet is very few with the ability will bypass the route simply
because it was not put up in the best style. The line is about as good as it gets.
I know that it would be at the top of my list, had I the guns. Right after
Warbler's Basket Dome route.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
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Ok im just trying to clear something up here and im kinda slow. Is film or photo coverage a exception to the rule. Rap bolting is ok if you are a certin distance from cameras?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Let's just say that a film crew significantly widens the distribution of spray pattern.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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This is a really dynamic thread with a few static lines thrown in for the heavy lifting. Threads like these are what make SuperTopo so valuable and interesting. And addictive dammit!
Tarbuster you so eloquently presented the poinancy of "Trad" climbing that I was left with nothing else to say. Thanks!
Healje you perfectly and clearly summed up the issues regarding style, ethics and presidence. Well done!
And Doug I want to tell you I also appreciate your posting up.
It is always good to get first hand info.
Only time will tell how this new route and it's creators will be perceived and regarded in the greater climbing world.
It may prove to be a lasting "classic" climb that future enthsiasts aspire to for generations. Or it may be yet another accepted "ego blight" like the Jardine Traverse or the Compressor Route. There are numerous examples of currently accepted and sought after climbs that were established in any number of unacceptable manners. Is pre-inspection and rap bolting off the South Face of Half Dome really any different than rapping to pre-inspect and pre-place gear in the Black Canyon? If it is please tell me why. Prehaps the reduction of adventure, discovery and risk that a top down approach entails will be outweighed by the increased preservation of a limited resource that a carefully "planned" route could, if done well, present. We have nearly enough examples of routes beaten into free climbable submission already. It is also inevitable that people will continue to seek out and develope new terrain. Some of those routes, as in every previous generation, will only rarely be repeated and only by the elite of the day. Others will be within reach of a much wider field of enthusiasts. Some of each kind will fade into obscurity either because they are utter choss or a death route while others will become hallowed classics regardless of the FA style. Climbing is funny that way.
Werner, any chance that Harding was placing all those rivets next to A1 cracks because he had an epiphany and was just trying to save it for the future? lol
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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He just didn't want those beautiful cracks bespoiled!
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ec
climber
ca
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This style of first ascent allows for the 'manufacturing' of a route. Virtually anything is possible with this state of mind. The thought that, "I'm going to put up a route on that." becomes very conclusive doesn't it?
"Growing Up" looks like an awesome line, no doubt. The route will stand the test of time as other contreversial routes. I have tremendous respect for Doug, however, I am saddened by his decision. It just seemed like "Climbing Half Dome the Wrong Way."
Sorry. Some of us would still rather not know what the fvck is coming-up on the next pitch. 'A friend of mine once said comparing FA styles, "When you do an FA of your own rap bolted route, it's like doing someone else's route."
 ec
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Survival wrote: He just didn't want those beautiful cracks bespoiled!
Looking back in retrospect and the state of some cracks on El Cap...you might be right.
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lost.hairrow
Social climber
Ojai,CA
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I wonder if all bolted routes were put up in the same style as th B.Y. if climbing whould still be legal especially in national parks. What a great thing that whould be. Talk about something fun to watch, illegal ascents most resulting in alot of blood. All right im switching to decaf.
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ec
climber
ca
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• Quality of the Experience!
Are you experienced?
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Fatty, your repetitive posting of that phrase is pedantic at best. It reminds me of your take on international diplomacy "nuke em' all", and begs the question, were you not loved as a child?
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