Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 09:45am PT
|
Werner, try to separate god from religion.
Good luck.
I don't see how you can justify spouting all your nonsense as if it were fact.
You love any false argument that supports your view, and offer nothing but mindless platitudes to combat the refutations.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 09:46am PT
|
All of this talk about God being beyond the ability of science to measure seems to miss a big point. Why SHOULD we believe in God in the first place? It's clear that in the past, humans assigned all sorts of natural phenomenon to God or gods until science stepped in with understanding that did not require the supernatural. So why should belief in God now be the de facto position? What, except for humankind's various "sacred texts" do we have as any kind of reason to believe? The only one that I can think of is our own existence and the existence of the universe. That may forever be an enigma, but I do not have to invoke God, particularly a personal God who cares about me to live with this unknowable thing.
|
|
Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 12:38pm PT
|
Science is just an attempt to systematically test questions so we don't keep going around in circles. It is easy to come up with questions or ideas which are impossible to test, such as "Is there or is there not a god?" But it might be possible to test the effects of believing in God or not.
You could pick people at random and by watching their everyday behavior, try to guess whether that person believes in God or not.
You could gather a group of athiests and a group of theists and rank them from highly moral to highly immoral. Pair them up by moral level, then see if observors can guess who are the athiests and who are the theists.
I have seen some statistical studies which looked at rates of various social issues, such as divorce, abortion, crime and such in different countries , and compared them with the rates of religiosity in those same countries.
Such studies cannot answer whether or not there is a God or gods, and it can't answer what is God. It might be possible to explore what are the social benefits and drawbacks of believing in God, having different kinds of beliefs, or belonging to different kinds of religious organizations.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
|
"Werner's god is invisible, does nothing, has no substance, is all knowing, and is only described by ancient books and stories."
LOL hahahaha that is a funny line, I must admit.
OK, .... hallelujah ya all saved me now! The great saviors of all mankind, Dirt and Dr. F
Hahahaha
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
|
People believe in God because their parents taught them too. It's myth. The one true God of the modern church is no more real than the multitude of Gods that the early civilizations thought were real. We are no different than them in believing what our parents, church, etc.., teach us.
Why does no one (except the atheists of the world) see the similarities between how strongly we believe in our God to how strongly the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc..., believed in their Gods? Why are we as a group so arrogant to think that we are right when all of those others before us were so wrong (besides having more modern works of fiction like the bible)?
Dave
P.S. the God that most of you believe in seems to be so messed up in the head, figuratively speaking, that I don't think I would want that God as my own. The God I would believe in would not throw a dog off a tall building and then blame it for not flying.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 02:23pm PT
|
Seems to me, there are quite a few atheists here. Supposedly, we account for only 2-3% in the US (although, interestingly, and since this is a God vs. Science thread, well over 90% of Nobel-prize-winning physicists are/were atheists). Seems like the Supertopo population is much higher than 3%. I'd hope so. It's darn right pathetic (and not a little bit scary) that nearly 50% of Americans believe in a 6,000 year old earth and do not believe in evolution.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 02:43pm PT
|
Earth is not 6000 years old, much much older, they are mistaken.
The start of Kali Yuga was approximately 5000 years ago, some mistaken Christians may have mistaken the start of the Kali Yuga as the beginning of creation.
The atheists are mistaken too. They have very poor fund of knowledge of the science of the soul.
Largo gave example that the dirty eye did not like but it corresponds perfectly with the Vedic conclusion.
There's much more ....... hee hee hee
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 02:44pm PT
|
Well Werner, sorry, but mankind will just have to save itself.
Starting with each person, one at a time.
The idea that anyone needs an external savior for what we can loosely call spiritual matters is the heart of the problem.
So, save yourself, if indeed you need saving from anything other than bad thinking. It's MUCH easier to save yourself from sin than from bad logic, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
|
Yes every man for himself, and the dirt as the leader?
|
|
bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 02:50pm PT
|
Greg..the higher your IQ the less of a chance you believe in a god.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 02:52pm PT
|
No, every person leading their own selves.
People can choose to be or do good just cause they like it, or want to.
IF you need a god to make yourself behave, fine, but keep it to yourself.
|
|
nature
climber
Santa Fe, NM
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
|
Actually... it's rather easy to separate God from religion. Well... you can't if you are within the western philosophies. Head east young man...
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 03:01pm PT
|
No leader?
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 03:09pm PT
|
Like I said, lead yourself. And only yourself.
Cut out the middle men.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 03:11pm PT
|
Then why are you submitting to the leader?
Your govt. is taxing you and telling you what to do.
And your post above is leading, you are taking the place of the leader.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
|
Render unto Cesar that which is Cesar's LOL.
AS for me taking the place of a leader, hmmm. Nah.
But if you insist, send your money to ME! I'll save you from yourself, and evil, and Thetans, and um, anything else I can think of. Yeah, that's it. Being the leader wihtthe responsibility of saving loyal followers takes big bucks, so don't skimp! Your soul depends on it Werner! (and anyone else foolish, I mean smart enough, to donate!)
Be advised that I may lead you right off a cliff at any time though.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 04:13pm PT
|
"The idea that anyone needs an external savior for what we can loosely call spiritual matters is the heart of the problem"
Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within. So you are correct in saying that one does not need an outer savior. Salvation is found within you as you connect to your true Self.
Many people here confuse the mass consciousness beliefs about what God is to what God really is. Our beliefs do not create God. They often create illusion. God IS. Therefore, to know God one must give up all of ones false beliefs. In fact, the best way is to give up attachments to any beliefs about God and then allow God to reveal Him/Her Self to you.
As Werner said, the world is much older then 6,000 years. Evolution has occurred, but probably not in quite the same way that science says it did. Evolution is the result of a raising or lowering of consciousness. All affects on this planet are a result of consciousness. One day science will finally realize this and then you will see greater advancements. Including what seems to be free energy.
We are everyday and every moment receiving energy. Most just haven't figured out how to use it. Yet some have, including Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Yogananda and others. A good book for nonbelievers to take a look at is "Autobiography of a Yogi " by Paramahansa Yogananda.
................................
For those who rail against God because of such things as natural disasters, you would need a higher understanding of how this universe works and what God has given us to see that it isn't really God who is doing these things. God truly does not want these things to occur, but He has given us free will and dominion over this planet. So it is not God ( meaning the higher aspect of God ) creating these things, but our own choices. We are here to learn how to Be God. This planet is a schoolroom. We do have teachers, we just ran away from school and entered the school of hard knocks, which is Karma. There is a way to learn without suffering from Karmic reaction. This is called Grace. But we must choose this way. God will not force this upon us because God created us to be in His/Her image. This means we have free will. So God respects this free will.
If He didn't, then we wouldn't have free will. The one problem with free will is that our actions have consequences. All action has consequences. This is the law of Karma, or... everything has an equal and opposite reaction. What we put into the world is given back to us.
We each have our own Karma, plus we contribute to the mass consciousness which creates world Karma. So we must deal with both.
God did make us and did make the rules of Life, but it is our choices that bring Karma to us. Just as God made Gravity, to give us something to play with and to challenge us, but it is our choices of how to play with it that create the consequences.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 05:45pm PT
|
Paul raised the question as to measurable effects associated with the existence of a god. This is an old area of study but here is one recent reference:
http://www.slate.com/id/2139373/
Many more can be found. I tried to access the actual scientific report on this study of the power of intercessionary prayer but there was a charge and thus an end to my attempt to access it. Apparently $2,400,000 was spent on the study involving the effect of 1,700,000 prayers upon the recovery of heart patients. Unfortunately the results were anticorrelated. Perhaps some of the participants got their instructions wrong and used juju. If so the study needs to be repeated taking great care to confiscate all needles.
Just so no one gets the idea I would here point out a similar experiment praying for improvement of the economy cannot work. One can make just as much money in a worsening economy as can be made in an improving one. In fact the amounts transferred are exactly the same. In such an experiment you would never know what was being asked for in the prayers.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
|
Yeah, jstan
Praying for material gain is not the prescribed method.
During WWII the wives and mothers prayed for the safety of their loved ones that went to battle.
A lot of them got killed. Some of the wives and mothers then became atheists.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jan 22, 2008 - 06:10pm PT
|
Very sad.
That is the great weakness of anecdotal data, such as of miraculous cures. You have no measure of confidence in the data, not to mention no proof that one was cause and the other effect.
On the other hand it can be argued direct action can be a cause. As I remember it was 1970 when a million of us went down to the reflecting pool in DC and LBJ decamped shortly thereafter. Something we might ponder today.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!