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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:22pm PT
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I'm just going to delete ALL my threads.
I don't have the time to go painstakingly through them all.
As I said earlier I have permission to post around 90% of the photos on my threads. I now know this is not good enough for ST.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:22pm PT
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A question for RJ/Chris....is there some way of writing the “Terms” as to absolve you and/or the site from liability or legal action....such as, putting the burden on the person posting something that is open for legal action? I’m guessing this may have already been addressed by you guys. I get what’s going on, it’s just too bad so many great threads and photos had to be deleted, but I too would not want to be held accountable for others actions. Hope the waters calm down and things get back to less stress for all involved.
Peace
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:28pm PT
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Chaos and confusion is exactly what the plaintiff is looking for and banking on - and he is presently WINNING!
Man the fuk up boys. Leave the site as-is and post that demand letter as a news release and general FYI. Then get back to your business. Don't let this piss your life away.
He sued you personally Chris, is that what I've gotten between the lines? Call your homeowner's policy. I just googled "Duty to defend" in CA, and it looks quite favorable in your state. If you're paying out of pocket now for a lawyer, he isn't going to want you to know these rules.
Then call Vinnie!
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:28pm PT
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BTW How do delete an entire thread?
I know if you delete the first post, the first page will disappear,
but what about the rest of the thread?
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:33pm PT
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ron gomez:
is there some way of writing the “Terms” as to absolve you and/or the site from liability or legal action....such as, putting the burden on the person posting something that is open for legal action?
Our terms have always done that (and still do today).
And, if we end up losing a copyright infringement lawsuit then we will very likely be forced to sue the person who uploaded the infringing images to recover our costs.
But, those terms are not sufficient to spare SuperTopo LLC from the real-time and costs required to rebuff or defend against a copyright lawsuit threat, even if that threat turns out to be without merit.
BJ:
Since nobody knows the history of every photo here just dump them all and close the doors.
I appreciate your frustration, but your comment is overstated.
The vast majority of photos uploaded on SuperTopo today appear to have fully complied with the Terms of Service.
Yes, in cases where someone has uploaded a photo that they don't have any right to use, it is a problem and it needs to be removed. But, it isn't the case that is the norm, and in most cases, it is quick and easy to resolve. Most people have uploaded only their own images. Several people who had uploaded more than 1,000 images have reported that going through their photos and deleting the handful that infringe has been relatively quick and easy to do.
I can understand this is a hassle. We don't like it either.
But, for most people, it is really not a huge deal: rather it is either a non-issue (since they didn't infringe on other people's copyrights) or a mild speed bump that they are quickly able to resolve.
As far as we can tell, there are only a few individuals who have had a habit of uploading images that violate the copyrights of others. For those people, it is a real situation, and in some cases, the simplest thing is to remove all images, which people can definitely ask for help with since we have a bulk image-upload delete tool for internal use here in those cases where individual photo deletion seems too overwhelming or impractical.
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:48pm PT
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RJ – let’s take another example. Under your profile/photos you have an image with the credit being given to RD Caughon. Since it is still in your profile can we assume that RD has transferred ownership of the image to you, in writing, since that’s what is required to transfer ownership? If you don’t have ownership in writing, even though you give him credit, is this image in violation of the SuperTopo policy? Is this how this is suppose to work?
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Avery
climber
New Zealand
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:49pm PT
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I HAVE TO ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN?
IF YOU HAVE DIRECT PERMISSION FROM THE AUTHOR TO POST HIS/HERS PHOTOS, HOW CAN THIS BE A PROBLEM?
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 19, 2019 - 03:53pm PT
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“Seems to” isn’t “does”. Yes - it appears to me that uncertainty is the perceived money in the bank for the plaintiff.
Their goal is likely a "cost of litigation" settlement. It will be settled pre-trial over this uncertainty, even if everyone present knows it would lose badly in a for-real trial.
Fuking parasites.
But this is what insurance is for. Activate it and get back to your life.
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John M
climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:03pm PT
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Avery.. the best I can figure is that your main problem is scans of articles. Most of your photos fall under the Donini exception posted earlier and explained by RJ.
Don't quote me on that, but thats what I see. If you want to save your threads, and I hope that you do, then maybe start by deleting all scans of articles.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:04pm PT
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DonC:
Under your profile/photos you have an image with the credit being given to RD Caughon. Since it is still in your profile can we assume that RD has transferred ownership of the image to you
That is a great example, thanks for bringing it up, since it may help clarify things for lots of people.
No, I don't have "ownership" of the copyright to that image. (Not sure which one you are referring to, but here's an example from the Tetons below.)
But, as I'm sure you can understand, ownership of a copyright is not required to "own the right to use" which is really the relevant question.
I have the right to use that photo from RD. That's how we did it. I took photos of him with my camera and I provided him those images to use as he'd like. He took photos of me and did the same. And, of course, I provided him the right to use the photos I took of him on our climbs, and he did likewise. RD was one of my all-time favorite climbing partners and a very good friend. FYI, RD passed away climbing on Makalu some years ago, or I'd happily ask him to post up and confirm that agreement himself. Below is an image I took of RD on a climb we did of Cathedral Peak and Eichorn's Pinnacle:
That kind of arrangement is pretty common for climbers and other situations too (we're not all carrying selfie sticks), and that is perfectly fine from SuperTopo's point of view, and there is nothing in our terms of service that precludes that kind of thing.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:05pm PT
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RIP- RD
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DonC
climber
Bishop and Redlands
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:10pm PT
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Thanks RJ - but as I read the original post from Chris in this thread no where does he talk about the "rights to use", it says you must own the rights to the image. I think there is a difference?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:18pm PT
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Help, Please ST Admin. I did a Thread in 2008 about two bouldering contests in honor of my husbands climbing. Can't find it and I had many photos on it. Pretty sure all the photos I posted were mine. Went through the nearly 600 photos I could find and the only problem I could see is I took a picture of a magazine cover/article, "Being Bachar". Should I delete it?
Fun to go thru all the pics....memories....what a blessed life I've had.
Edit: or maybe someone else can help me find it. I found it a while ago....
To much stuff going on....
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
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DonC:
I read the original post from Chris in this thread no where does he talk about the "rights to use", it says you must own the rights to the image. I think there is a difference?
Chris's post is brief and simply summarizes the Terms of Service, which is really the document that outlines the rules in more verbose and legal terms.
Chris refers to the Terms of Service, which is the legal document that is relevant. I'm confident that the intention of Chris saying "own the rights" is simply a short-hand way to clarify that people need to have the rights to images they upload, and to confirm their upload is in compliance with copyright law and will not violate the intellectual copyrights of others. People may "own the rights" because they literally own the copyright, or they may have the rights by other means.
The key section of the Terms of Service on this topic is obviously more verbose:
You agree not to post, upload to, transmit, distribute, store, create or otherwise publish or send through the Service any of the following:
 User Content that is unlawful, libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, indecent, lewd, suggestive, harassing, threatening, abusive, inflammatory, fraudulent or otherwise objectionable;
User Content that would constitute, encourage or provide instructions for a criminal offense, violate the rights of any party or that would otherwise create liability or violate any local, state, national or international law;
User Content that displays, describes or encourages usage of any product in a manner that could be offensive, inappropriate or harmful to SuperTopo or any user or consumer or that is contrary to any instructions or warnings relating to the product
User Content that may impinge upon the publicity, privacy or data protection rights of others, including pictures or information about another individual where you have not obtained such individual's consent;
User Content that may infringe any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual or proprietary right of any party;
User Content that impersonates any person or entity or otherwise misrepresents your affiliation with a person or entity;
Viruses, malware of any kind, corrupted data or other harmful, disruptive or destructive files or code; and
User Content that, in the sole judgment of SuperTopo, restricts or inhibits any other person from using or enjoying the Service or which may expose SuperTopo or its users to any harm or liability of any type.
Lynn L:
...the only problem I could see is I took a picture of a magazine cover/article, "Being Bachar". Should I delete it?
Yes, and thanks for asking. Other people may have similar questions.
Scans of magazines, guidebooks, or books are specifically one of the types of common copyright infringing images Chris flagged in his post today. Chris said:
- Scans of Copyrighted Magazines, Books, or Articles - we can't have any scans of climbing articles, guidebook pages, or any other scans of copyrighted printed material on our server. I know this kind of content has been interesting and may have real historical or educational value, but it is nonetheless copyright infringing and needs to be removed
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:29pm PT
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RJ, I realize you are currently in the midst of dealing with the effects of this policy clarification & action, but do you really think these subtleties are going to be remembered by users into the future?
As you & Chris have described the situation, you probably don’t have a choice...but it sure doesn’t seem to bode well for the future of this place.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:31pm PT
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Thank you for your response! It sure helps that you are clarifying questions so we can move forward more informed and with an understanding where Supertopo is in all of this.
Peace
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 19, 2019 - 04:58pm PT
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Apogee:
As you & Chris have described the situation, you probably don’t have a choice...but it sure doesn’t seem to bode well for the future of this place
I think the painful issue is really climbing history content.
There are a lot of very high quality and interesting posts on the site with climbing history (For example, Steve Grossman's many awesome climbing-history posts).
The challenge we face now is that many of those posts are chock full (no pun intended) of copyright infringing material that creates a real liability for SuperTopo LLC.
It seems pretty clear that SuperTopo is just not a good home for this kind of climbing history content, which would be better hosted on something like Wikipedia that:
1. Has the resources, staff, and a process to properly do vetting of copyrights on images
2. Has a commitment to long-term sustained hosting of valuable historic information
The reality, more obvious to Chris and I now that it was a month ago, is that SuperTopo is simply not set up to be a good caretaker of this kind of important, valuable, climbing history content. Had we had the foresight to realize that years ago, we would have been pro-active in advocating that Steve Grossman, Fritz, Marlow, and others who have created amazing climbing history contributions here on SuperTopo post them instead on a site like Wikipedia that is set up for that kind of thing. I know Chris has been talking about figuring out a way to relocate posts of climbing historic value to the North American Climbing History Association that Steve Grossman is involved with, and I hope we can help make that happen.
I know Chris very much wants to figure out a way to get climbing history information that is on SuperTopo today relocated to a proper, sustainable, and long-term home elsewhere.
rj
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:02pm PT
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Do you guys need contributions to obtain better legal representation?
I am sure some are willing.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:10pm PT
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Climbing history is a substantial issue for me, although I am more concerned with what happened a century ago than more recent developments. Nowhere can I find any problem with imagery and printed material that is that old and out of copyright.
Except for Getty, which seems to have a goal of copyrighting virtually all historical images. That's the death knell of efforts to illuminate the past on a site like this. Even on Wikipedia the ownership of images is a significant consideration. Try uploading one if you've not done so.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Apr 19, 2019 - 05:10pm PT
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RJ, Rather than Wikipedia, any way for some entity to set up a "one stop, hold all the content" non-profit website? That way everything would be in one place.
Deleting the Bachar mag image. THX.
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