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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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As one who was among the first to arrive at the scene of the aftermath of this tragedy, I am still trying to understand what actually happened, in hopes of finding both some personal peace of mind and some take-away lessons for those who will continue to pursue climbing and other adventure sports. So thank you all for your insights, introspections, speculations, links to other information sources, and thoughts of condolence. At present, it seems we will never know what, precisely, triggered this event, and that may not be as important as recognizing that it could be any number of random possibilities beyond our control.
As I said in my first posting near the top of this thread, we will have to await the YOSAR report to have the benefit of their experience and on-site analysis to more completely understand what happened. However, there seems to be no link to the YOSAR report so far. Has it been completed? Will it or does it address the many questions that have been raised here? How do we, as a very concerned public (with 250+ posting here so far), whose future choices and lives may be influenced by its contents, get access to it? Will it or has it been posted on the NPS/Yosemite website? Will it require someone going into the YOSAR or Superintendent’s office, possibly with a Freedom-Of-Information request? What is the process?
Peace.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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It has always been true that the vast majority of climbing deaths do not occur during “grand challenges.” Climbers are always flaunting gravity and gravity never takes a vacation. Mistakes are an everyday part of life and while climbing they assume a seriousness not found in the other things we do. Try to always be vigilant.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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BooDawg maybe start out with the two emails posted upthread
Hi,
Jason is my brother-in-law. Tim and Jason were truly amazing human beings. We will miss them so much.
I would like to let the climbing community know that NPS is taking witness statements.
They can be emailed to Jesse McGahey and Brandon Latham.
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov
brandon_latham@nps.gov
Thank you.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Maybe as climbers we should talk more about near misses as this may help us make better decisions.
Not really near misses and this may be how many people already think about things, but maybe I was lucky when I started to climb and learned some important lessons:
I asked a mentor how often / where I should place pro and his advice was gold, he said "think about what will happen if you fall at any place on the route and place pro accordingly. More at the start and above ledges, and less if the fall would be clean". This "what if" thinking is a great foundation to help climb as safe as possible given what you are doing. Of course you'll want a piece before a crux, but also placing one piece during a 50 foot easy run out means up to a ~50 foot fall instead of up to a ~100 foot fall.
My first whipper was on easy terrain on Fairview Dome regular route. I had pulled a crux, let me guard down, and was cruising up easy terrain not paying as close attention as I should have been, and hadn't placed any gear in a while. My foot slipped and I took a ride. Luckily only my pinky got injured and I was able to complete the route. I learned the lesson that falls on easy terrain can have the same consequences as hard terrain. They are less likely, but accidents and oversights happen and you should account for them too.
Soon after Fairview Dome I climbed Traveler Buttress. The final pitch is so much easier than the ones below. I was racing up the dikes and about halfway up the last 100 feet or so, and I realized I had no pro in. I felt there was no way I'd fall, but I still had all my gear on me. I figured why not look for a super quick and bomber placement, plug in a cam quickly, and go. So if something really weird or unexpected happened the consequences would be much less severe.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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The possibility that they were moving together over 5th class terrain a rope length apart without at least one belay quality anchor between them is difficult to comprehend.
Once upon a time I shared that view. I tried to avoid being roped to another person when the rope wasn't clipped into something reasonably solid.
But alpine climbing changed that. Trying to do something long with easy sections in between. I didn't want to lug much gear up because of the weight. When simul climbing in that sort of environment we usually tied in short. Say 100 feet to have less rope drag and better communication. I was usually in the lead as my partner was the stronger climber. If I hit 300 feet of third and fourth class terrain or maybe even easy 5th, I would usually skip putting any gear in depending on all sorts of considerations. How much gear I have left, how loose/dirty is the climb, how threatening the clouds look, etc.
If I had encounter that sort of terrain still during the "approach" I would solo through it without a second thought until I got to the "start" of the climb.
Being roped together obviously means one mistake can kill both. But in the context of all the risks taken over my climbing career, I don't believe that simul climbing on easy ground makes the short list.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Same for the 2nd rope going to the 3rd. it was attached to the gear loop, not haul loop. Which is a mistake.
So I haven't seen it specified, the trailed rope was dynamic? If it was static, I would rather have it attached to a gear loop that would break at a low load.
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HeschMonster
Trad climber
Morro Bay
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Forgive my tone but as far as a YOSAR report, hasn't it been...two fuggin days? I think asking after a WEEK would be appropriate but can we please ease off the immediate gratification culture? Pretty sure rushing a report is a great way to screw up what might be a great teaching piece for us all in the future.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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^^yeah that's why I suggested just asking someone who has put their names out there rather than treating it like an adversarial relationship.
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clode
Trad climber
portland, or
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It's like bicycling in dark or near dark conditions. What good do your lights do if you don't use them?
Similarly, what good does your gear do when it's hanging off your harness, and not secured into the rock and clipped to your rope (for protection, its intended purpose, not going for a ride, literally)?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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very nice cellardoor (some posts back). Worth repeating (a third time I see) to get a sense of these two.
What a huge loss. Can't even imagine the pain of the family and close friends. Their world will never be the same.
Tim and Jason’s seasonal romp up the Big Stone was something I looked forward to every season. Their presence seemed to benchmark my growth as a climber.
First, it was climbing the Salathe Wall for the first time in 2013. As a wide-eyed noob, I was in disbelief with their amazing athletic abilities, stamina, and lighted-hearted approach to climbing something so ungodly in a day.
As I progressed in climbing, I returned again, to the base of Freeblast, eager to make the first all female one day Salathe ascent. At 4:30 am, we were not the first to the base. Tim and Jason were. We didn’t even try jockey in front of them. I remembered that laughter and ease as each pitch seemed to melt away below their feet. Other teams que’d in behind us, and before their take off, we all had a dance party.
Again, in 2016, before an attempt on Freerider, we found them at the base, frothing at the bit and antsy to get a quick romp before returning to families and careers. They had hardly slept the night before, racing North from L.A.
Last fall, at another pre-dawn start to my attempt at Freerider in a day, I found them encapsulated with the same joy children have. No contest for who went first! Even though, I continued to push myself every year, I was no contender for those two. This time, I was scared of such an outing, but they assured me that there were no bad days on El Capitan. Within a few minutes of starting the route, they were both off the ground, moving fluidly through the bottom third of the wall. By the time we reached the slabs, they were nearing the monster. I was always in awe of those two.
What I fail to see at times in my own personal journey is contentment. Tim and Jason, balancing their obsession with movement and El Cap and lives nobly spent teaching, parenting, serving others, were content and full of joy on the wall. I could count on nothing less than unbridled psyche and optimism. It makes me wonder if a life always seeking and pushing breeds real happiness, or rather, a life of balance allows one to really enjoy each moment and experience as it comes.
'To live until death is to live enough,' words from Lao Tzu. Those brief memories at the base of the Salathe with those two are so very cherished. I didn’t know them at all really, but something makes me believe these two men truly lived their lives with richness.
My heart goes out to the family, friends, YOSAR, and everyone affected by the accident.
big love
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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From a SAFESTART course at work...
This can be used in any activity including crossing the street, in the "Line of Fire" of on coming traffic, etc. !
That's why Ice climbers belay to the side of the leader to not be underneath falling chunks of ice!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I'm sure we can all appreciate reasons why one should climb this way, or that, or why one should avoid certain techniques in a vacuum in favor of others....
We still do not know what happened. Please hold off on speculation. As someone who has been involved in a fatal accident seeing the discussion moved to Monday morning quarterbacking is tiresome and trite.
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Franco909
Trad climber
SFO
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The possibility that they were moving together over 5th class terrain a rope length apart without at least one belay quality anchor between them is difficult to comprehend.
Once upon a time I shared that view. I tried to avoid being roped to another person when the rope wasn't clipped into something reasonably solid.
But alpine climbing changed that. Trying to do something long with easy sections in between. I didn't want to lug much gear up because of the weight. When simul climbing in that sort of environment we usually tied in short. Say 100 feet to have less rope drag and better communication. I was usually in the lead as my partner was the stronger climber. If I hit 300 feet of third and fourth class terrain or maybe even easy 5th, I would usually skip putting any gear in depending on all sorts of considerations. How much gear I have left, how loose/dirty is the climb, how threatening the clouds look, etc.
If I had encounter that sort of terrain still during the "approach" I would solo through it without a second thought until I got to the "start" of the climb.
Being roped together obviously means one mistake can kill both. But in the context of all the risks taken over my climbing career, I don't believe that simul climbing on easy ground makes the short list.
A friend and a highly experience guide frequently expressed this view. On steep terrain either go unroped or use protection.
Unfortunately he and his partner passed away in circumstances very similar.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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we do not know that these guys were speed climbing, likely they were just doing a regular ascent.
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rookers
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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We still do not know what happened. Please hold off on speculation. As someone who has been involved in a fatal accident seeing the discussion moved to Monday morning quarterbacking is tiresome and trite.
I heartily agree. This sort of speculation probably assuages something in certain folk, but it's not terribly useful to the community in general.
It also happens every time there's a fatality of uncertain origin. Speculation can be hurtful to the families who, in the end, suffer the greatest effect.
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Tamara Robbins
climber
not a climber, just related...
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G Davis, I neither made assumptions nor drew conclusions about this particular incident. My post meant to be broader in scope, and was posted here because they were, whether doing a "speed" ascent or not, utilizing speed climbing techniques (unless I'm totally mistaken?).
My intention was more about having a way to define those techniques (which are necessarily different and arguably more dangerous) from those involved in a multi-day climb on a big wall. Traditional big wall climbing and speed ascending have their own unique intention, preparation, and procedure... hence the idea of more clear semantic identification of each?
Ekat, ty I think.... I had to research the TFPU thing lol
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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I respect your post and absolutely understand why you posted it - I just think maybe it is appropriate for another time, or another thread.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Edited - sorry eKat, that was uncalled for
It makes me wonder if a life always seeking and pushing breeds real happiness, or rather, a life of balance allows one to really enjoy each moment and experience as it comes.
I really like that. Thanks for sharing.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Speed ascending sounds like what the cavers do when they string up a 3,000 foot rope and jug (or rope walk) next to the Dawn Wall.
It's all climbing. There are many modifiers to more accurately describe the particular discipline someone is engaged in, that often get left out for ease or brevity (or ignorance in many mainstream media articles). Big wall climbing. Aid climbing. Free solo climbing, etc. The term "speed climbing" can applied to a wide variety of strategies to ascend quicker. I suppose the Nose records could be called competitive big wall speed climbing.
It seems in this thread we may be conflating competitive big wall speed climbing with speed climbing techniques people are using to make quicker ascents. It doesn't sound like this party was going for a record, it sounds like they were going fast because that is what they typically did and enjoyed.
There is a lot of discussion in this thread around speed climbing, and although we don't have the facts yet, it seems the main difference in technique between traditional climbing technique and what was perhaps a factor in this incident was that they were simul-climbing. But even simul-climbing has a large spectrum of style/risk associated with it. At the low end there's the simple 20 feet of simul-climbing some parties do when linking pitches that are maybe 220 feet total and you have 200 feet of rope, so the follower climbs a little of easy terrain so the leader can reach a belay station, and you have 10 or more pieces of gear between you. Then there's the high end where climbers are moving fast on 5.11 terrain with one or two pieces of gear between them. I don't think you can judge things too simply because there's such a wide range of style/risk associated with multiple aspects of even one technique.
edited for clarity
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