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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 14, 2017 - 04:52pm PT
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They help feminists like Ed . . .
Oh oh.
;>\
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 14, 2017 - 05:13pm PT
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if that's the label you want to put on me, Warbler, label away...
reading the Declaration of Independence as a sort of position paper which established the philosophical basis to secede from the British empire, we find the famous passage:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
150 years later, women got the right to vote, kind of amazing that given those words, unless you take them literally, that is, they were only talking about men, excluding women.
Half the governed were not allowed to provide their consent to the government that was to secure those rights. As we know, that didn't work out so well, at least for women, and a number of other excluded classes of humans.
Women's suffrage is less than 100 years old.
Apparently those "truths" weren't so self evident, unless you're a man.
as for married women?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Married_Women%27s_Property_Acts_in_the_United_States
As the U.S. Congress considered legislation to protect the civil rights of African-Americans that became the Civil Rights Act of 1866, opponents of the legislation charged that it would alter the legal status of married women. Senator Edgar Cowan, a supporter of the legislature ridiculed that suggestion: "What was the involuntary servitude mentioned there? ... Was it the right the husband had to the service of his wife? Nobody can pretend that those things were within the purview of that amendment; nobody believes it."[13]
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 14, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
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That's the exact kind of stuff I was shamed with during my time in public school Ed.
It's complete nonsense. Blaming people for historical wrongs they had nothing to do with is simply absurd.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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Wanting 51% of the human race to have equal opportunity in the workplace and on the playing field is not feminisim.....it's just right thinking.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 14, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
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you guys aren't a part of the culture? you thought these things up all by yourselves...
wow, chapeau!
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 14, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
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Is every Muslim responsible for the "culture" that created the 9/11attacks? Is every German responsible for the "culture" that led to the horrors of the holocaust?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 14, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
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German's post WWII did look very deeply at their culture to try to understand what led to those events and took personal responsibility, collectively, as a nation.
They didn't excuse their own behavior by saying "well that was history, it is irrelevant to me."
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 14, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
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Ed- your supposition is that every male should feel guilt over historical grievances against women. By that regard every German born today should be shamed for the crimes comitted by nazi Germany
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 14, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
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Ed- your supposition is that every male should feel guilt over historical grievances against women.
No that is not my supposition, what I have clearly said is that one should listen to the stories of women and other under represented people and take them seriously. From those serious considerations, we should act as Charles Vest advised his faculty, paraphrasing: "listen, contemplate the messages and information, and act upon it personally and collectively."
There can certainly be no harm in that.
By that regard every German born today should be shamed for the crimes comitted by nazi Germany
I think that part of modern German culture is the consideration of what happened in their society that lead to WWII, it is not shame, it's a recognition that the most advanced society on almost all fronts: arts, science, music, mathematics, engineering, technology, literature, theatre, philosophy, industry, in the first third of the twentieth century committed those horrible crimes.
It is something to be aware of, it is a lesson to us all.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 14, 2017 - 08:09pm PT
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It is a lesson that has additional currency in today's America.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jul 14, 2017 - 08:35pm PT
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Ed- no one is saying the experiences of women should not be taken seriously. What I am saying is the extremist views often found in modern feminism today are often based on broad generalizations and questionable anecdotal evidence. Feelings are often subjective
And there is no shame in looking back on germanys history as a German and seeing a collective moral failure on many fronts
Blaming all Germans as evil over past deeds in the manner many feminists blame all men would however be shameful.
And when I say feminists are blaming all men I am talking about the freely used accusation of a patriarchy that is allegedly holding women back
Apperently even in climbing..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 14, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
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Blaming all Germans as evil over past deeds in the manner many feminists blame all men would however be shameful.
Too bad they haven't copped to the nightmare of Köln's New Year's Eve when the poor oppressed muslim men went all cultural on the naive German women.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jul 14, 2017 - 10:47pm PT
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150 years after slavery ended, and median white wealth is 13 times median black wealth. And all those housewives who choose to be housewives are just mucking up the statistics in favor of the feminists!
But the past is the past - let it go.
This is just evidence that whites are naturally better at creating wealth than blacks, and that a woman's natural place is in the kitchen. What's so confusing?
We white men must be geniuses if we can convince ourselves to believe that.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jul 14, 2017 - 11:17pm PT
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FYI, the source of this important thread, the enormocast, has awesome interviews with lots of iconic female climbers. Some of my idols, like Lynn Hill, Steph Davis, and Kitty Calhoun have been and still are totally crushing and give fully climbing geeked out interviews. It's also cool to listen to the younguns about their exploits.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 14, 2017 - 11:44pm PT
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There can certainly be no harm in that.
As long as we can call it scientific!?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 14, 2017 - 11:48pm PT
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Jul 14, 2017 - 10:47pm PT
150 years after slavery ended, and median white wealth is 13 times median black wealth. And all those housewives who choose to be housewives are just mucking up the statistics in favor of the feminists!
But the past is the past - let it go.
This is just evidence that whites are naturally better at creating wealth than blacks, and that a woman's natural place is in the kitchen. What's so confusing?
Welp, history is the only truth!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 15, 2017 - 08:50am PT
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Off topic but
Jul 7, 2017 - 08:26am PT
Ed, you may be confused.
Unless Pack went back and sent the finger crack at the bottom, the route had not even been redpointed in full last time I was down there, and I've heard the wide pitch called 5.12 by her regular partner, who also attempted the finger crack pitch without success
For the record somebodysnybody, what anyone says about downrating the wide pitch on Event Horizon or comparing its difficulty to that of other routes is not credible because they have not done it. To date, No One has repeated that pitch, not Danny, not the Wide Boyz not "her regular [EX] partner".
I've been on the pitch, have you? It's not 5.12!i also belayed the ffa
The route was left out of the guidebook at the request of "regular partner" who did not want the world to know that he had failed where a mere girl had climbed the pitch. His argument was that he was working on the first pitch and didn't want someone to "steal his project"
So for years every single person who has driven to Indian creek in daylight hours has seen the route that at least was, the hardest ow in the creek, and the knowledge was kept from them to coddle a fragile male ego
As soon as the third addition of the guide was out he abandoned the project. That pitch. TemainsA/C 1
Now Who is confused, somebodyanybody?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2017 - 09:55am PT
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I'll rally with Jaybro anytime...
...but if you are making stupid statements, I'll call you out, bro...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2017 - 10:49am PT
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I think what I was getting at was that Shanti (Ms. Pack) is certainly a part of the conversation regarding hard offwidth climbing these days, right there with the best boys. You can't have a discussion regarding this end of the spectrum of climbing without including her accomplishments and her program.
I won't be getting on those routes anytime soon, for sure, and probably never. In the climbing hierarchy, which is merit based, we acknowledge those that can do the routes. It is also very common that when someone "snakes" another's project that there is controversy, but hey, do it or get out of the way, right?
As for the routes, time will tell as the rest of climbing gets to them. Right now, the small numbers of people trying them are all we have to tell what the difficulty might be, and aside from all the hemming and hawing, if someone can get up the pitch when others cannot, it certainly makes a statement.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2017 - 11:33am PT
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you can't meet up to that standard, and you never could (as your own lack of OW accomplishments attests)
that is not to say you weren't doing important ascents in your day. Your day is past. As for women getting up your routes, there's something creepily voyeuristic in the image of you monitoring all your routes to tally who is doing them, unless you're just blowing smoke...
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