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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I think the BluBlocker is one of the more truthful Christians
He doesn't have the filter that represses his feelings
I think most of think the same thing as BB, and of course that's why I ask
You guys are so easily trapped by your own mind, you can't express or have critical thought of so many ideas.
It's almost impossible to trap a scientist, you can ask Dr. Ed any question and he won't have "faith" issues about his answer
I don't think I have ever had a question that I can't answer honestly, I may be wrong, but their are no traps I set up for myself.
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John M
climber
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I think most of think the same thing as BB, and of course that's why I ask
I'm sure that you do. Your bias is obvious. Nice troll by the way.
And this part of why I don't answer you. You have a preconceived notion. Something unscientific by the way. You are attempting to prove your belief and are not open to anything else. Even when faced with someone like Daniel, you still prefer to believe that secretly he has all of Blueblockers biases. or that I have all of his biases.
or I believe the same way Daniel does, even though we have disagreed on this very thread.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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On Religion and Marriage;
Most couples I've known from my generation have split up. I've often thought it hypocritical that some religious and family values types, who have divorces and family disfunction, would spout their christian and conservative rhetoric to others while being completely unable to reflect such order in their own house.
But who am I to criticize? I am often but a renegade rabble by my own thinking and civility is a reluctant discipline and instinct required of this ex-addict/drunk and ex-climber, dog worshipping, writer/poet wannabe in order to survive.
Marriage, although many times rewarding, requires lots of work and is difficult. I have 'rationalized' my 30 year marriage multiple times on many levels and have always concluded, although the early years of our relationship were more tumultuous, that the deep attraction to my mate has been primarily and mutually beneficial. The best part of it is (this is satisfying to the analytical part of my thinking) that we've always been friends and partners first, but lovers through passion and biological attraction after.
It's curious and perplexing that although we both use caution and reasoning to make most of our decisions together, often as not we don't see eye to eye about many things.
Once a hippie mom/climber's spouse and now grandmother, my wife is also a 30 year civil servant and cancer survivor, who is at heart a 'just in case there's a god' catholic, but she doesn't act on or talk about any of the faith thing but values family and family traditions above all else.
I on the other hand have self deprogrammed myself from religion, bitter agnosticism, and AA speudo-spiritual doctrine. Although I'm sometimes reclusive with my spare time, I have reluctantly and sometimes rebelliously conformed to most social conventions in order to maintain harmony in our marriage and to function in society.
To her I believe our bond is that of the traditional marriage while to me it's a beloved partnership. Compromise and acceptance, and sometimes forgiveness, these are concepts I'm still working towards realizing, ideas being taught me by life and marriage.
On another note.
What happened to the atheist thread? Maybe I should start my own one and just go all atheist all the time and quit trying to stick it to the Christian types, who probably could use a good reach around, but don't deserve of or care to acknowledge my nattering.
-bushman
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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It was 2 jackets and 2 long sleeve piles
Since I was f-ing cold
and the many JIBs were loaded with Ice, so I even drinking the cold
Not sure I want this praying for me
hard to understand the thought behind that photo manip
I may have to take it down
It seems almost hateful using his own avatar against him???
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Norton
Social climber
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I think a Power of Attorney Repent form works
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Norton
Social climber
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The closest early concept of Hell as a place where those who were not just in life suffer appears for the first time probably in Egyptian religion.
According to the Book of the Dead (≈ 1550 BC), Duat, the Egyptian underworld, is filled with dangerous creatures attacking the dead soul that goes to seek the justice of Osiris (only the knowledge of magical spells can save the dead). Osiris weighs the heart of the dead man on the scales of Ma'at, and if the man is found just, he goes to the paradise of Aaru; if not, the soul is instantly devoured by a giant beast Ammit and is banished to wander the earth for eternity. The critical part is the moral judgement, but still the worst punishment is in Egypt, as in primitive religions, the endless wandering.
https://www.quora.com/Where-and-when-did-the-concept-of-Hell-originate
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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I suspect my story about the day I went climbing with Bruce & Jesus might be of interest to some here.
Summer 1982 I decide a “direct start” for the classic North Ridge Goat Perch route in Idaho’s Sawtooth Mountains would be an “interesting challenge.”
I went in with Bruce: a friend that I had climbed with very little. That mattered not, since this man was in every way my superior. He had the good genes to the max and was: athletic, intelligent, tall, handsome, and fearless. In fact he was just out of the Navy and had been a fighter pilot and then was in the Blue Angels. Oh-----and he was a born-again Christian, but he tolerated my pagan ways & once joked to me:
"I have to believe in God, only he could have made someone as wonderful as me."
Bruce even secretly carried a six-pack of beer up to the lakes under our route, for my drinking pleasure.
The first lead on our north-face Goat’s Perch route, was up a steep chimney/gully, with a jam crack at its back. At the end of the first lead, the choice was overhanging off-width, or an inviting ledge that went left to less-steep terrain above. Bruce led left and quickly turned a corner. The rope stopped. Then he called back, “there’s a little loose rock here.”
In the next half hour, he must have pulled off 10 tons of rock. The snowfield below was soon a blackened war zone. Slowly, the rope played out, then more crashes and booms would shatter the quiet.
At last I heard “On Belay” and followed the lead. The traverse was just horribly-loose, but then I reached the line that he had climbed up to his belay. The granite was simply stacks of small loose blocks, at a 70-80 degree angle. There was some “protection” slotted between obviously loose blocks. It was not an easy lead to follow, and when I reached Bruce I was both scared and angry.
“How could you justify leading that?” I barked.
“Everything is loose and your protection wouldn’t have stopped a falling squirrel”
Bruce thought for a minute and then calmly replied: “It was pretty iffy, but whenever I got to a tough spot I asked Jesus where to go.” He then smiled and added: “he takes care of me.”
Never before had someone asserted to me: that Jesus took a personal interest in his climbing.
I was truly staggered. I clipped into the belay nuts, noting that they were worthless to stop a leader fall. Rappeling was out of the question, since we were now above an overhang. Down-climbing did not seem like a good option either.
After some water and a little small talk, I decided that based on prior success: Bruce and Jesus could lead the next pitch too.
That pitch was not as bad, but it was worse for me: since I was now in the direct line of rock fall. I hung the pack above me and cowered as stones clattered by. The only rocks that hit me were mercifully small. Once again, when I followed the lead, the rock was all loose. The protection that Bruce & Jesus had placed would probably not have stopped a leader fall.
Another similar, but easier lead for Bruce & Jesus followed.
When I reached Bruce again, I realized we were very close to where the North Ridge route started. We had done a “significant direct-start variation.” I was able to do a traverse over to the ridge on reasonably good rock. Bruce was however, very disappointed in me. I adamantly refused to continue up the standard North Ridge route with him and Jesus.
I did not write the route up, since any future parties might not have the divine protection that we had experienced.
I also confess: I did not “see the light” and continued in my pagan ways.
So? Do the Christians on this thread climb with Jesus the same way, or was I climbing with Saint Bruce?
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John M
climber
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Hell over God is an understandable CHOICE???...
Locker,
try it this way.
what I believe Dean is trying to say is that the person doesn't knowingly chose hell. So it becomes understandable why someone would turn from God if their only experience in this lifetime was abuse from some so called religious people. They don't realize that they are choosing hell, and they have little to no reference for what God is, so it becomes understandable why they chose what they do. It is only from the perspective of knowing about hell, that one can see the consequences and make informed decisions. Its like the child who won't eat their vegetables. They only know that they don't like the taste. Not the consequences of their decision.
Does that help you understand? And by no means Dean, am I claiming that this is absolutely what you are saying. If I am mistaken, then please forgive me.
......
To add to the above. I realize that most Christians don't believe in reincarnation, but it is in my opinion the only way to explain many questions that people have. In this case, I believe the above person would simply be given another lifetime to work things out. but one must understand also that it is ones karma that puts one in the above situation. The above person is not blameless as karma follows us from lifetime to lifetime. We reap what we sow. Again, I fully understand that most Christians do not accept this teaching.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2016 - 05:56pm PT
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the 'i dont know' was refreshing to see, as was the acceptance of evolution. left at that the whole thread would be neat.
the rest was barely related to the question and a string of inconsistencies but it may be that was your point.
dont get me wrong, i admire your grace and even courage in hosting this thread. you are filling in lots of blanks with a depth of quality and a sound sense of debate. respect. Oh, I think I understand. What I meant in my original response (re: hallucinogenic plants) was basically that I don't know, maybe they evolved those chemicals as a deterrent to predators or maybe God made them that way, and maybe he did so so we can hallucinate? I really have no idea because it's not addressed in the Bible. Your questioned looked like it was asked under the assumption that using those plants is "bad" according to Jesus. The rest of my response was to explain that the bible doesn't say it's bad, but does say that we should obey laws and not do things that others might see as sinful so that we don't cause confusion or make Christians look like hypocrites. That's why I don't partake, at least. Did that clarify it a bit?
Well at least he put in a smiley face
I really hit a nerve, that's what I hate about reactionaries, they just can't hold to together when their "faith" is challenged.
Is it a right wing thing?, authoritarian? Christian?
It's not really a Christian thing, so many other folks have the same personality trait.
BB
Does this hate you have apply to everyone that believes in evolution?
Even the Vatican Catholics now accept evolution. This was directed at BLUEBLOCR so I'll stay out of it.
No offense but your belief system is of zero interest. You can't expect to influence a highly intelligent, free thinker with a world of experiences if you don't use words with meaning.
You do know what blather means, right?
( to Klimmer over at the Trump thread)
I actually dig all that kooky prophecizing. It's hypnotic. I can see how one might get addicted to belief. Creepy. Scary. But definitely a pleasant opiate.
Rational thought and religion will never coexist. And we keep killing your gods. And we always will. All you facists ( and anti-intellectuals) are bound to lose.
Zeus? Dead.
Zoroaster? Dead?
Christ? Double Dead. Fair enough. As a side note, I believe this is another example of the Bible understanding human nature and giving us insights into what to expect. I'll put all of 1st Corinthians chapter 1:18-23 here, instead of just citing it:
//18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. 19 As the Scriptures say,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”[e]
20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. 22 It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. 23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.
//
Can atheists love as much as a good Christians??
Why not, what would restrict the level of love available from one's self? I believe that anyone can experience love, but I also believe that knowing the love of Jesus is unique (Philippians 3:8)
Is it a sin to question the bible?
What sins have I committed? I think it is normal, and maybe even important, to question everything you believe, even the Bible. It is full of people questioning God to try to learn or understand (Psalms 10:1-18, 1st Corinthians 13:22).
Does Satan have influence over me?
How can you tell? I believe Satan is a master deceiver (John 8:44). I think an example of this comes from the "hindsight is 20/20" saying. Think back to mistakes you have made, that make you ask yourself what in the world you were thinking and how you could have possibly thought it was a good decision, and I believe that is when you were deceived.
Question:
If they do not repent before they die...
are they doomed to Hell???... I believe people who do not accept the love and forgiveness of Christ are dooming themselves to eternal separation from him (2nd Thessalonians 1:9). Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how the Bible reads to me and I trust that God is just and fair (Psalms 25:8).
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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My question earlier was, "Doesn't God also sin?" When I see the injustice of the world and the monsters like Hitler and Bin Laden that nature and man have created I have to ask, if there were a god, what would his part be in it?Ignore me if you must for I probably sound like a very confused athiest to be entering into your Christianity contest this way but for me it's an honest question.
I really am interested in how people of faith deal with this question and wonder what are their thoughts besides the pat answers; such is god's will, or God allows evil in order for people to seek redemption, or something along those lines. My favorite one (not) is that we are not capable of understanding all of gods plan, or our place is not to question his work.
Woe be unto the widow or family when they're grieving the loss of a loved one and the preacher hands down such platitudes. I can only imagine how inadequate the explanation would resonate for some parents who have lost a child to a murderer to be counseled with "They are no longer suffering, for now they are in God's loving hands." That one is so heartbreaking that I wonder why more clergy don't suffer the broken jaw.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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why there are so many churches in Bay area ?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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The Bay Area?
There are 16 churches in Littlestown PA, which has a population of 4,400. That's one church for every 275 people. Pretty amazing when you consider the place is about a third Amish and they meet in homes and barns.
San Fransisco has a church for every 1,565 people.
(15th out of 20 major cities)
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WBraun
climber
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Meanwhile the so called "Christians" maintain industrialized slaughterhouses and kill kill kill
in the most barbaric methods, mistreat other living entities horrendously, all while preaching love and thou shalt not kill.
All while claiming animals have no soul and we have dominion over them, and can kill them in any way we want.
Such violent hypocritical consciousness ......
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
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So? Do the Christians on this thread climb with Jesus the same way, or was I climbing with Saint Bruce? Ha! That's an awesome story. I do pray before each climb but I don't know that I've taken it that far.
Before I climbed I was a competitive snowboarder and wanted to make a career out of it so I would try things that weren't too smart. Before each of these moments I would pray and ask God to keep me alive and prevent any permanent injury. This was my attempt at accepting responsibility for making a poor choice by dealing with regular injuries, or something like that.
This whole area of faith, trust and God's will is an interesting one to think about and I like to hear stories about how other people live it out. Even when they look like crazies, ha!
No atheists in a foxhole!
My question earlier was, "Doesn't God also sin?" When I see the injustice of the world and the monsters like Hitler and Bin Laden that nature and man have created I have to ask, if there were a god, what would his part be in it?Ignore me if you must for I probably sound like a very confused athiest to be entering into your Christianity contest this way but for me it's an honest question.
I really am interested in how people of faith deal with this question and wonder what are their thoughts besides the pat answers; such is god's will, or God allows evil in order for people to seek redemption, or something along those lines. My favorite one (not) is that we are not capable of understanding all of gods plan, or our place is not to question his work.
Woe be unto the widow or family when they're grieving the loss of a loved one and the preacher hands down such platitudes. I can only imagine how inadequate the explanation would resonate for some parents who have lost a child to a murderer to be counseled with "They are no longer suffering, for now they are in God's loving hands." That one is so heartbreaking that I wonder why more clergy don't suffer the broken jaw. I agree with Cragman's answer above. I would also add that, for me personally, I take heart in the verse about how this life is just a little blip when compared to spending eternity with God (Romans 8:18). I also think some of those "pat answers" have some merit :)
As to you last paragraph, I believe the Bible tells us to comfort people and not spend too much time trying to justify their loss or cheer them up (Romans 12:15)
why there are so many churches in Bay area ? I believe Jesus told us that this would happen (Matthew 24:14). And like minded people like to meet together (climbing get togethers).
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Fritz...It's time change your pagan ways...Nudie flicks , beer busts , and other naughty rituals at the choss ranch under the spell of the inukshuks will lead to total damnation..rj
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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RJ! Thanks for the advice:
Fritz...It's time change your pagan ways...Nudie flicks , beer busts , and other naughty rituals at the choss ranch under the spell of the inukshuks will lead to total damnation..rj
I think its time to check your grammer & sentence structure on ST posts.
Does Heidi's Solstice Lingam with lights offend Jesus, or is that another one of the things that get judged after death, which is a typical way of Christians saying:
Doode, I haven't a clue, but I will pass this one on to God.
How wonderful never to have to decide anything on your own. You can just quote the bible, or side-step the question with something like: "that will be decided by God."
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WBraun
climber
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You've never decided anything on your own period.
You don't even own your own body.
Everything you so called decide is ultimately carried out by God thru his different energies .......
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Knowitally Proclamation
Selfie Servicing Delusion
Yup
You dum dum.
Life is going to fill your plate
And pop your bubbles.
And Jesus ain't never coming to save you.
And when you die, poof!
No more limping duck
No more human delusion
Y'all are cave men
Stuck in your old, scaredy minds.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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WBRAUN! Re your post:
Apr 3, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
You've never decided anything on your own period.
You don't even own your own body.
Everything you so called decide is ultimately carried out by God thru his different energies .......
I've decided you are a tough, interesting, somewhat crazy, but significant, curmudgeon,
Please Post on with my godless blessings.
It's fun to see your thoughts.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Werner writes: Everything you so called decide is ultimately carried out by God thru his different
Then he's the biggest crankloon. And a schizzo to boot.
Can you rate your childhood indoctrination on a scale of 1-10. Climbers are nutso but you're extra specially maladjusted. Care to explain?
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