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zBrown
Ice climber
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Remind me, again, the nature of the exploitation in Ferguson.
Start with the report of the Justice Department.
Darkness at the break of noon.
The 12 key highlights from the DOJ’s scathing Ferguson report
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dirtbag
climber
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Send 'em tickets for trespassing later. Defuse the whole situation
After seeing how the bundy mess played out two years ago, with the Feds backing down, I doubt the feds have itchy trigger fingers this time around. But when this over, they will get much harsher charges than trespassing, since they are interfering with the functions of federal employees.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Dingus posted Oregon, Wall Street, Ferguson, South Carolina, etc etc etc protesters trespassed in support of causes not their own. It seems criticism of those occupations falls on the usual party lines.
They were unarmed. I have no problem with unarmed occupation of public spaces even if I disagree with their goals. Show up with weapons and you aren't protesting, you're assaulting. You're literally attacking America. Bust out your "America Under Siege" logos, FOX News!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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A mob is just as dangerous un-armed as it is armed.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The DOJ report isn't what caused the demonstrations, civil disobedience and the riots - there were all three - in Ferguson. It was reaction to an inaccurate account of an encounter between policemen and a suspect who disobeyed police orders. A review of posts at the time demonstrate that most posters already made assumptions about whether the police account was truthful and made strong allegations, based on those assumptions, about the guilt or innocence of the officer involved.
The DOJ report nonetheless accounts for the vehemence of the response to the shooting, and also explains why so many people didn't consider the particular facts in that particular shooting as important as the larger history.
I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence, but I see the same thing happening on this issue. Those supporting the occupiers are using their perceptions of history between the occupiers and their supposed supporters and the government as justification for the trespass/occupation.
I don't hold myself immune from this. I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed."
Sure they are.
A mob's primary weapon is its numbers. That's kind of the whole idea behind mobbing-up.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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"Mobs are NOT as dangerous unarmed as they are armed."
Sure they are.
A mob's primary weapon is its numbers. That's kind of the whole idea behind mobbing-up.
Oh Lordy, but I hope you can't procreate.
George Washington didn't use his ability to "mob-up" to defeat the British. He shot them.
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/01/04/fbi-takes-lead-on-investigating-armed-takeover-of-federal-building-in-oregon/
What if the Oregon Protesters Were Black or Muslim? Debate Ensues
By KATIE ROGERSJAN. 4, 2016
Photo
An Arizona cattle rancher, LaVoy Finicum, led members of the media through the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore. Credit Jim Urquhart/Reuters
The Oregon protest at a federal wildlife refuge has reignited an already intense debate on social media about policing, race and terrorism.
On Saturday, an armed group of antigovernment protesters occupied a remote federal wildlife refuge in Oregon and warned that they would not leave without a fight. The authorities have held back rather than use force.
On social media, that led quickly to questions about a double standard, particularly from liberals and the left, who asked: What if the armed men were Muslim or black? They predicted the authorities would have been more forceful.
Many or all of the protesters appear to be white. It was unclear what religion they are, but least one has made reference to a prominent (and antigovernment) Mormon figure.
Ryan Bundy was one of the protesters occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Ore., on Sunday.Armed Group Vows to Continue Occupation at Oregon RefugeJAN. 3, 2016
Ryan Bundy, part of an armed anti-government group, walks between occupied buildings at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.What We Know About the Standoff in OregonJAN. 3, 2016
Protester Scott Drexler on a bridge next to the Bureau of Land Management's base camp where seized cattle, that belonged to rancher Cliven Bundy, where being held near Bunkerville, Nevada last April.Retro Report: Memories of Waco Siege Continue to Fuel Far-Right GroupsJULY 12, 2015
Randy Weaver supporters at Ruby Ridge in northern Idaho in 1992.Retro Report: An Idaho Family, and Federal Tactics, Under SiegeOCT. 26, 2014
Some wondered why the news media and the authorities were not calling the takeover a form of terrorism. People used the hashtags #YallQaeda, #YeeHawd, and #VanillaISIS to challenge a widely held perception that terrorism applies only to crimes carried about by minorities and non-Christians.
The leader of the armed group in Oregon is Ammon Bundy, the son of Cliven Bundy, a rancher in Nevada who in 2014 engaged in an armed standoff with federal officials, gaining the support of leaders in the conservative movement, then losing it after declaring that black Americans would be better off as slaves.
Still, many conservatives on Twitter criticized the debate, and said it was a step too far to call the men terrorists, and pushed back against memes that perpetuated stereotypes about white people.
Continue reading the main story
Continue reading the main story
Others objected to the criticism of the lack of force used by the authorities by drawing comparisons to past deadly standoffs between the federal authorities and armed groups that harbor antigovernment sentiments.
“Worth recalling lessons of Waco and Ruby Ridge before suggesting FBI should simply go to war with Oregon militiamen,” an observer wrote on Twitter on Sunday.
What We Know About the Standoff in Oregon
In February 1993, a gun battle erupted in Waco, Tex., between federal authorities and members of a religious sect called the Branch Davidians. The fighting resulted in the deaths of four federal agents and half a dozen members of the sect. That was followed by a 51-day standoff and another confrontation that left dozens more people dead. All told, at least 82 Branch Davidians died. A third of those killed were children.
A year earlier, a confrontation in northern Idaho between the authorities and Randall Weaver, a white separatist, led to the fatal shooting of his wife and son. A federal marshal was also killed during the conflict, which came after an 11-day standoff. In 1995, the government awarded $3.1 million to Mr. Weaver.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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If you are the first one to go into a situation armed, you are the aggressor. It is an act of intimidation. When the gubmn't shows up and calls you on it, and you say you are defending yourself, you are an idiot. There are few thngs as pathetic as a group of dumb, armed rednecks pretending to be "patriots".
But this is the price of living in the land of freedom I guess.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Excuse me for missing the point of all this discussion. But it just seems absolutely embarrassing that some bubbas can think that pulling out guns will help solve some legal issue with the government of a country which is a huge global dealer in weapons and bombs, banking debt. What an image; what a legacy for a precocious country that is struggling to maintain moral credibility.
I'm actually far more embarrassed about letting the likes of your ilk hand over my liberty and personal freedom to our government than I will ever be of a bunch of retards out in the marsh trying find the thermostat in a federal building in one of the least populated counties in the entire country.
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WBraun
climber
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bubbas can think that pulling out guns will help solve sh!t
They learned it and are imitating their own govt.
The US govt. bullies everyone on the planet now a days with guns, bombs and threats of taking over if you don't toe their line ......
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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chaz posted A mob is just as dangerous un-armed as it is armed.
That's why you don't own a gun, right? Because you're just as dangerous without it.
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WBraun
climber
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So they are no different then The US govt.
You Americans are insane .....
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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OMFG, these goobers are endless entertainment.
Now they are asking people to donate supplies (specifically "snacks, energy drinks, cold weather socks") by...wait for it...sending them via General Delivery to the Burns Post Office.
Govt Tyranny!! Oh, except the post office, they ain't real feds. Do these idiots really think they're going to be allowed to just take a jaunt into Burns, pick up their care-packages of Slim Jims and Red Bull, and pooter on back down to the Wildlife Refuge?
These Talibanjo fools are better than George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Kinnison, and Chris Rock all rolled into one. I've got tears of laughter rolling down my cheeks looking at their Twitter beg and the replies. It's like the best performance art ever.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I simply don't see any justification in current American history for occupation of anything by anyone who doesn't own it. That's true whether it's Justin Herman Plaza in San Francisco, Alcatraz Island by native Americans, or an abandoned facility in Oregon. The use of extra-governmental force threatens a free society, wherever we use that force.
The justification is the creation of attention and publicity over something that is happening, but it not making it onto the airwaves.
This is a well-recognized form of civil disobedience.
BUT, there are required elements to be so:
1. No violence.
2. No arms.
3. allow arrests of protesters (although perhaps not simple "get up and go along")
I've always been impressed by those who protested, but agreeably went into custody, such as the Nun who trespassed at the nuclear facility.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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When you've lost the Oath Keepers, you might want to reconsider your Vanilla ISIS crusade:
Stewart Rhodes, president and founder of the Oath Keepers, posted a video statement on the ranchers' situation in which he criticized the son of infamous Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy for taking up the cause of Dwight and Stewart Hammond. Rhodes branded those involved with Ammon Bundy's protest as “potheads.”
“The Oath Keepers will not be involved in an armed stand off that’s being manufactured by potheads who want a fight because this is going to be a bad fight, not a righteous moral high ground fight,” Rhodes said in the video, which was posted Thursday.
Poor 'ol Rong must be mighty confused and torn right now. "Oaf Keepers or Burns Brigade, Oaf Keepers or Burns Brigade?"
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Norton
Social climber
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I know the usual suspect will accuse me of my usual false equivalence,
I doubt very much he will, as he agrees with you on this one, John!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Thanks, Norton! I haven't had a chance to respond in our private conversation for reasons that I am too busy to get into, but I hope you have a most wonderful new year.
John
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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They ARE their own government, that's the ironic part.
You mean....
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