Coordinated attacks ongoing in France

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Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:37am PT

Now the countries of Western Europe must come to their collective senses and exclude the hordes of Islamists flooding their countries.

What do you suggest should be done about the tens of thousands of decent people who are fleeing the violence in their Islamic homelands?

How do you separate the "Islamists" from the vast number of people who are in fear for their lives, and the lives of their families, if they stay where they are?

Spiny Norman

Social climber

Boring, Oregon

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:38am PT

"Not physically, but simply by mob action pushing in ahead of me. I was disgusted by it."...

Never been to NYC or Tokyo or Seoul.

So noted.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:48am PT

"How do you separate Islamists"?

The short answer-you don't. After enough of them are murdered by the radicals, and in conjunction with a middle east wide embargo of oil imports along with a reversal of middle eastern immigrants, you squeeze the so called moderate peace loving among them to police their own shet.

We have enough fossil fuels in this hemisphere to supply us with a determined effort in less than a decade. Western Europe can frack on a large scale and I'm sure Vladimir would love to export more.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:50am PT

I wouldn't call any of them Ladies. Especially with their pack of smelly kids swarming along.

John M

climber

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:53am PT

different cultures have different ways. Have you ever been in line in front of a group of Japanese. Some of them will stand practically right in your back pocket. They are very polite, but they have a different sense of space.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:55am PT

Ghost-

I guess that it's just the 99% that are bad terrorists that give the remaining ones a bad name?

Spiny Norman

Social climber

Boring, Oregon

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:57am PT

That didn't take much. A few religious fanatics with rifles go berzerk and the genocidal morons crawl from the gutters.

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Nov 14, 2015 - 11:59am PT

I guess that it's just the 99% that are bad terrorists that give the remaining ones a bad name?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying you think that all of the tens of thousands -- probably hundreds of thousands now -- of people fleeing the violence in the Middle East and Africa are terrorists?

Spiny Norman

Social climber

Boring, Oregon

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:01pm PT

Waiting for Brokedown to call for the mass extermination of Protestants and Catholics because of the ten thousand bombings during the Troubles.

Banks

Trad climber

Santa Monica, CA

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:07pm PT

That didn't take much. A few religious fanatics with rifles go berzerk and the genocidal morons crawl from the gutters.

Precisely my point. Instead of having an actual conversation, it turns into a troll fest at best, and a hate fest at its absolute worst.

Larry Nelson

Social climber

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:08pm PT

Ghost:
What do you suggest should be done about the tens of thousands of decent people who are fleeing the violence in their Islamic homelands?

That is a real tragedy for those innocents.
I do wonder why Muslim brothers in countries not beset by war are not opening their arms to help.
Start with Saudi Arabia and the other wealthy oil sheikdoms.
What about Iran?
What about Turkey?
What's up with that?
Is it only Western civilization's responsibility?

10b4me

Mountain climber

Retired Climber

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:09pm PT

What do you suggest should be done about the tens of thousands of decent people who are fleeing the violence in their Islamic homelands?

we tell them to grow some balls, we arm them, and we tell them to go back and fight for their homeland(like the Kurds are doing).

SC seagoat

Trad climber

Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:14pm PT

Especially with their pack of smelly kids swarming along.

Com'on Rodger...do we really have to demonize the kids now???

If my mothering skills were determined about how pristine I kept my son....well Big Fail.

I get your outrage (well some of it) but I do believe our only hope are the young people who will somehow bridge this horrific cultural divide. My son studied for a year in Europe, primarily Germany, and his group of friends was as diverse as anything I've ever seen. They embraced each other and shared in the joy that young folks have. I laughed when he returned home and visited some friends in Salt Lake City and they went to a bar. He said "Mom, the only people I saw were white".

I do firmly believe it will be up to our young people.

Susan

Spiny Norman

Social climber

Boring, Oregon

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:15pm PT

Reminder: we're having this conversation on a site which focuses on climbing in areas stolen through systematic and total or near-total genocide, orchestrated and executed by Christians.

10b4me

Mountain climber

Retired Climber

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:23pm PT

Larry,

Keep in mind that Saudi Arabia is Sunni, ISIS is Sunni, Iran is Shiite.
Saudi Arabia doesn't want a war with Iran, but I can see them using ISIS in a proxy war.

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:27pm PT

When I was in 5th grade, there was a period when an 8th grader would sit behind me on the bus and mess with me. He'd flick my ear or tap me on the back of my head a few times, I'd turn around and say stop it, and he would laugh with his friends. One day I decided to ignore it, to stop giving him the reaction he wanted. That just led to him escalating. Flicking and tapping grew to slapping and harder hits while I pretended like nothing was happening. Until it crossed my threshold and I spun around and punched him in the nose. He was bleeding and crying and all his friends were mad saying they were going to kick my ass. Luckily we had just arrived at my bus stop so I could get out of it. I was suspended from school for a few days (the teacher was smirking in tacit approval of my actions when she told my mom what happened), and that bully never bothered me again.

I wonder, projecting this incident onto a national level, and without the possibility of escaping off the bus in the wake of standing up, what would happen. And I wonder whether the ignoring/denial me would be the folks from the Middle East who have been screwed by resource exploiting colonialists, or the folks in the western world today who are blissfully ignorant of generations of theft and violence abroad that have made our material comforts cheaper and our lives easier. But all this stuff does go back so much farther, gangs clashing back to the dawn of time, competing for resources and power in the name of their cave, their clan, their race, their religion, their country, whatever.

I have nothing against folks who want to believe any religion that helps them form supportive societies and enable them to cope with life. But I have everything against folks who try to impose their life views and constraints onto those around them. For this reason I support secular governments that can arbitrate the values of different cultural and religious groups to find a path where folks of various tribes can live in civilized harmony.

I do not want a world where any religious group creates laws that all must abide within their boundaries, also supported by a military. Secular governments that permit religious freedom must draw the line at beliefs that do not fundamentally support the harmonious coexistence with others who do not share the belief, and remove religious protections from all groups that remain silent in the face of violent groups claiming their acts in the name of that religion.

I oppose warmongers who don't take the time to understand what circumstances lead a group of people to follow a violent ideology, and deal with the roots of that rather than the fruits of that.

I used to believe in pacifism. I have had extended dealings with people from which I have learned that you will end up without even a cardboard box over your head if you really live that way. So I'm up for defending my sense of what civilization should be, but that is a very far cry from reactionary violence for violence in the wake of atrocities, when all the players and motives are not out on the table. Religious extremism and desire for global conversion is a piece of the puzzle from one set of players. Acting in response to that bit alone would be unlikely to reach and end state we want.

When a cam is stuck in a crack, you don't just yank or push with all your might in opposition to the rock. You take the time to see how it got that way, and try to reverse it gently and delicately. Sometimes you need force, but that's never the place to start. And if you have to hit that cam so hard you can't work with it any more, what's the point? What have you achieved? You just littered on the world. Think with the end in mind. Most human beings just want to live their lives with more happiness and less pain. When there's enough pain, they can be easily distracted by the wrong messenger, who latches onto whatever ideological framework is convenient to enlist the support of oppressed people.

Spiny Norman

Social climber

Boring, Oregon

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:42pm PT

It clarifies things when someone reveals that he is an unalloyed racist.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Nov 14, 2015 - 12:43pm PT

Susan-

The whole thing just hit me wrong; I was returning to Germany after a lapse of 49 years. I had a wonderful morning at BMW Welt, taking delivery of a new BMW X-1 for my return trip to climbing in the Dolomites. Then to be greeted nicely by the hotel management, but being affronted by an entire lobby filled with burka clad females, each with a constellation of kids swarming around. All I wanted was the opportunity to go to my room, have a shower, and relax after an overnight flight and zero sleep. Then I was treated very rudely at the elevator bank by these other "guests." Not what I was paying 130 Eu per night to experience! I tried to put it behind me, but the Muslim presence was overwhelming in the Holiday Inn Central, including the smell of Middle eastern cooking on my floor after getting off the elevator. I'd selected the central location for a reason: the Deutsches Museum was a short walk of about 10 minutes. I couldn't get out of there fast enough to my comfortable Pension in Lower Franconia, near Rothenburg/Tauber.

As a qualifier: I have several Muslim friends here in the USA, and none of them would have been this crass!