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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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It's all about greed vs. humanity
F*#k Germany and the Banksters, it's shameful what they continue to do with the support of the conservatives.
Craig, do you recognize that the lenders to the Greek government aren't going to get their money back, regardless of what they or anyone else does? Do you recognize that the Greek government's social welfare programs can't keep their propmises without others giving it money? I make the point of using "giving," not "lending," because only a visionary could imagine getting back any money given (under any terms) to the current Greek government.
Neither "austerity" nor "profligacy" provide a necessary or sufficient condition to prosperity. The only way Greece can avoid what you call "austerity" is for other governments to give money to Greece forever. Why would or should they do so?
John
Edit: No wonder so much rock fell on Half Dome. Norton and I agree. I don't blame the retirees either. They changed their position in reliance on promises made by their government. Also the tax collection problems of Greece are well known.
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Norton
Social climber
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I agree with JohnE on this one.
however I do not "blame" excessive government pension spending, the average government retiree gets around $900 a month, arguably poverty level life styles
what is often overlooked is the tax collection structure across Greece, very poor enforcement from what I am reading
There is a willingness, an eagerness, to blame the retirees with meager pensions
They didn't make the rules, they worked, retired, and have had their pensions slashed
I am sick of the constant bleating that its all the fault spending, it is not, period
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Michael Lew's article is very instructive. I had to keep reminding myself that I was reading about Greece and not Nepal. In thinking about what both have in common, my conclusion is that they were ruled by autocrats for several centuries in a feudal system over which they had no control.
The Nepalese were oppressed and still are, by the conquering Shahs and Ranas and their high caste henchmen while in Greece it was hideous exploitation by the Ottoman Turks for four centuries.The natural response is learned helplessness and a devious undercutting of the system at the same time.
Both countries have failed to incorporate into their culture the idea that they are now responsible for their country's outcome. Their governments remain untrustworthy and the people continue to view their government as the enemy. This makes it impossible to have a modern government or economy. Meanwhile, the poor suffer.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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It's both... It's spending and collection..
Government is by consent. The people of Greece have largely withdrawn their consent hence the massive black-market as people simply work around it.
You'll see the same thing here. It's only a matter of time.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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There's only one hope left...
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Norton
Social climber
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You'll see the same thing here. It's only a matter of time.
care to elaborate?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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It's the lenders or the Pensions
Why is it that always that the pensions and retirements of millions is the first to go when Governments inflict austerity.
The pain is shifted from the wealth to the middle class
Greece needs to pull out of the Euro and claim bankruptcy, like Trump.
The Euro has been a failure, due it being created by the creator of Reaganomics. It sucks all the public services up as it enriches the enriched. This austerity will bring down many other countries as the citizens realize that they were Neo-conned and refuse to support it.
you'll see the same thing here
Low taxes is the cause for us, we don't invest in the future, it's just suck the life out of everything that can produce bucks.
We could change course, but the pain will have to go to the top, not the bottom. Currently we're on a race to the bottom.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Craig...It's impossible to re-invest in our infrastructure when billions in collectable taxes are hidden in offshore accounts...Guess who picks up the slack...rj
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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You cannot cut your way to prosperity!
Uhh... actually that's the one sure road to prosperity: Spend LESS than you have coming in, CUT your expenses, and invest the inevitable surplus.
When you spend LESS than your income, you have surplus. INVEST that, and you have the basis of prosperity.
Spend MORE than your income, and you WILL have disaster ultimately. The ONLY solution is to CUT. Sooner or later, cutting is inevitable.
So, let me fix it for you: "You cannot spend your way to prosperity."
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Please tell us what Country has cut it's way to prosperity?
This is about Nations with millions of lives at stake, not your own little selfish check book.
The solution is not about more cutting, it's about the way taxes have been manipulated to steal from the Governments.
Instead of cutting, the answer is to spend more, and enforce the tax code in a way that the lobbyists are made to feel the pain.
We could, and other Countries should be taxing the excessive profits of the new gilded class.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Please tell us what Country has cut it's way to prosperity?
This is about Nations with millions of lives at stake, not your own little selfish check book.
Please tell us what country has spent its way to prosperity.
This is about nations with millions of lives at stake, not your own little selfish entitlements.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Instead of cutting, the answer is to spend more
Always the liberal answer, regardless of national debt or any hope/plan of repayment.
But, of course, there's always "raise taxes," which is the other liberal panacea that turns out to justify yet more spending.
Yesss... borrow and spend, borrow and spend our way to prosperity!
Yayyyy!!!!!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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America spent it's way to prosperity after WWII
And then Reagan came along, and spent the American legacy of riches and then piled on debt to boot.
and then millions of jobs lost, millions of people out of work
It's the same story all across the Neo-con influence.
The answer is not to raise taxes, it's to bring the taxes back from the rock bottom toxic low tax rates that the rich and special interests are "Entitled" to by the bought off Republican
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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But one problem we have in common with Greece. Corruption woven into the very fabric, throughout the Government.
Currently, myself and 22 million others, have had their data stolen from Government computers. The procurement policies are riddled with cronyism. Not given to the best product. The ACA website rollout, wasn't a fluke, but the norm. Log onto IRS.gov or the VA website. Loaded with problems.
Many of the wealthy, see no reason to pour more money into such a wasteful system. Clean it up, and have the moral high ground again. As is, it's the bottom of the sewer.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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America spent it's way to prosperity after WWII
The scary thing is that liberals actually believe garbage like this.
But, hey, we can just print ourselves more "money" to spend. It's all good.
Actually, it's not "we" doing the printing; the printing press has NOTHING to do with "us," despite the euphemistic name "Federal Reserve." The name is 1984 doublespeak in both of its words; it is neither.
The current financial situation is designed and implemented by pure evil. But just keep playing along and singing the tune they give you.
Borrow and spend! Borrow and spend!
True prosperity is JUST around the corner. Yayyyy!!!!!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Log onto IRS.gov or the VA website. Loaded with problems.
I wouldn't recommend it!
Our government is so populated with idiots that they cannot find the time/money among the deepest pockets on the planet to even put a valid SSL certificate on their sites.
If you are going to login, you had better be using an SSL connection, and the government thoughtfully does provide an HTTPS option. However, that connection is exactly as secure as the certificate security.
Several weeks ago, healthcare.gov was garnering a C- and was vulnerable to several known exploits, including Poodle. It's fixed now, but by contrast, the dozens and dozens of sites my company maintains were patched within about two hours after the Poodle bug became public. But our "mighty" (and totally incompetent) government didn't get patched for MONTHS!
Ohhh... right. They just need to SPEND more and raise taxes to pay for it. Riggghhhhttt. We haven't tried that yet. Perhaps that'll fix it.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Indeed. I recently did some Tax business online. My States website, run by competent accountable Liberals, performed very well. The IRS website, was horrible. No accountability. I heard Obama can't even fire the idiots in this latest disaster. Zero accountability.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^^^ Spot on.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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When did lending become "Risk Free"?
Doesn't the free market decide?
What about market corrections after they implode?
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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There's a difference between a loan and an outright gift.
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