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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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John, thanks for your response on the details. I agree, it would be rather limiting if that was the only thing under discussion. But it seemed important enough to ask, since apparently if Ammon had not used it, this thread wouldn't exist. Since Ammon was being criticized, then we start to wonder if he missed a tricky move, or if the rock changed, etc.
For what it's worth, I've heard the average height of an adult (US?) male is 5'8" (average female is 5'5"). I'm not sure if that applies directly to the average height of climbers.
Ben, it is not automatic that if you see a pin scar then you try to hammer a pin into it. True, that is not an option if you are not carrying a hammer. But what I meant is that Chris Mac suggested maybe a slider nut or two would go into the scar, and addiroids tried that but it didn't hold. So a pin scar may be a distraction from a different move (in this case a blind reach) that may be needed to do it clean.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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Ron: "Healy, that it is "for each of us to decide" is actually at the core of the problem as, while protecting the life of the mallethead may be used as the excuse, we ALL have to live (OR DIE) with the results OF that decision."
Ron, I agree with you, Steve, and John - in principle - the problem is not everyone does and even if they did there is the problem of "enforcing" the ethic. Now I don't doubt you have at least one .50 cal sniper rifle with a ring tone locator at your disposal, but you simply can't be everywhere at once. And besides, let's face it, you of all people would look completely silly in the uniform. And while I have an outpouring of empathy for every renegade spirit backed into an oversight role, how you gonna force it on anyone? This conversation is about the best I think we can do, along with leading by example, and in that respect Steve is owed his due for tacking the issue up on a mirror for each of us to look at...
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:50pm PT
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Healy, I think we may finally have that elusive resolution yet!
I was getting psyched to join Ron, however, being an associate shooting enthusiast.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 05:51pm PT
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Ricardo,
that business of saying that using fixed gear which was hammered obviates "clean" climbing is a pussy cop out, a rationalization used to excuse irresponsible behavior, a sham of erstwhile noble motives.
Why can't you admit that you're just spoiled by having been able to abuse the liberty of future climbers by altering their legacy at will, and that such discussions threaten the enjoyment of that blithe disregard, and that you are willing to grab at straws with flawed precepts just to attempt to maintain that undeserved freedom?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 05:56pm PT
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Madbolter1,
I believe selective memory serves your purposes far better than my own. If you feel that I am lying here, man up and just say so and I will return the favor on another thread once this one has run its course. In the meantime those details please, if you would be so kind. Is that polite or what?
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:01pm PT
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"Why can't you admit that you're just spoiled by having been able to abuse the liberty of future climbers by altering their legacy at will, and that such discussions threaten the enjoyment of that blithe disregard, and that you are willing to grab at straws with flawed precepts just to attempt to maintain that undeserved freedom? " -
Is not any first ascent that relies on pitons " altering the legacy of future climbers " then Ron? And I would have to say that really all ascents alter the rock to some extent - even free and clean climbing if it removes dirt and plants. Perhaps what we need is not a ban on pitons but a ban on new climbs.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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Healy,
I've come to the conclusion that climbers won't effectively self-regulate.
The result will be either a ban on climbing on public lands or else a whole new layer of bureaucracy, licenses, mandatory permits (even with lotteries, like river trips), certifications and FEES with a capital F.
Think in terms of SCUBA where you have to be certified.
Think in terms of hunting, where if you are not licensed you can lose your whole outfit (including vehicle).
It could very well be that future climbers look back on our lack of restraint and say, "There! You see what happens?"
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
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Ben,
I think its possible to put up a route, making alterations to the resource, in a responsible manner with an eye towards long term viability.
That should be the priority objective not high numbers.
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Kartch
climber
Mutahna
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
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Holy Crap (which this forum is)
My prediction - all this yappin will cause more traffic on CT this year than it has seen total since the FA. Those who do it clean (or bail trying) will return to the ground and spray to their disciples about why they are holy. On the other hand those who swing the hammer on the route will return to the ground and spray to their disciples about their holiness.
Me, I'll be having a good time watching Southpark.
Edit - My point is that all this thread is doing is cementing belief systems of the individuals, whether for or against the hammer.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:13pm PT
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"I think its possible to put up a route, making alterations to the resource, in a responsible manner with an eye towards long term viability. " -
While I would tend to agree, it's easy to say this here at a computer keyboard but hard to remember or do strung out in the middle of 100' of tied off blades and Arrows 1000' off the ground, eh??
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:22pm PT
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Nonetheless Ben it is an ethic I've stuck to for the past 20 years out of my career of FAs.
But this thread amazes me.
To paraphrase Homer, was this the piton that launched a thousand posts?
(OK maybe it was just Bart.)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:25pm PT
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Ron,
I think the movement towards ever increasing regulatory oversight and enforcement has been underway for some time and simply beginning to accelerate. From my perspective the necessity is pegged purely to the population statistic of the number of people who identify themselves as "climbers". I personally would like nothing more than to see those numbers, and the popularity of the sport, utterly collapse back to pre-80's levels. But with hundreds of gyms acting as engines powering and anchoring the commercialization of climbing and cranking out a steady annual tidal stream of climbers that's not likely to happen. Even if 80% of people who enter a gym successively drop out of climbing each year over their first five years it's still a staggering impact in raw numbers.
Windsurfing collapsed in just such a manner in the 90's and I for one am glad it did - less sailors at a very small number of constrained launch sites on days too big for kites. Again, I'm not holding my breath for the same in climbing and as land managers get educated to the risks and impacts (as recently witnessed) they will be stepping up regulation and enforcement to keep in sync with our impact. I see it as unavoidable and feel if you support clean ethics it has to be viewed as an acceptable cross to bear and one of our own making.
[ Edit: Maybe the epidemic of obesity is our last hope and refuge... ]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
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Nefarius, how DARE you bash on the Bird like that??? You can SAY that you meant no disrespect, but your point itself is clearly pejorative!!! We mad bolters have learned what you can and cannot say about the Bird, and you have CLEARLY crossed the line. How long will it take YOU to learn?
You are in a bind. The Bird was/is a great climber. Thus, you rightfully appeal to him as an example of "great" climbing. But "great" does not always denote "pure" or "ethical". You cannot dis him, though, as you have done; so you cannot demonstrate the very problem faced by those like SG who want us all held to the "highest" "ethical" standards at all times. YOU are the one who needs a different angle, because you simply cannot point out the problem BY dissing the Bird!
Get a clue, dude!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
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Bird droppings?
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:39pm PT
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Right on... hahaha Careful, Rich... You're supposed to be on my belay at some point in the next few months...
Just making a point. I think Bird was a *great* climber (read amazing visionary). Always will. There are several people here, whom I know personally and have climbed with, who are more on the "Pins" side of things, who I think are great climbers too! My point was simply that if you're going to try to prove a point, do so uisng facts and players will help to prove your point.
Honestly, I think this issue has been beaten (pardon the pun)into the ground here. It's always the same thing, with the same folks on each side. This hasn't changed in decades, nor will it in the future. Unfortuantely, I think Ron is right. The end result will be a ban, heavy fees, etc...
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:42pm PT
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After I broke down the move in question for Clint I kept wondering why knowbody seems to have found the blind placement. When I did that move I did not have a hammer or pins and I spent a bit of time trying to figure out how to use the pin scar at the end of the little roof. I had tunnel vision. Once I realized I would have to back off I broadened my horizons and found the placement. If I would have had a hammer I would never have found the blind placement. Definitely an interesting experience/adventure.
John
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Moose Cock?
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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Steve, I soloed HS in early summer of 84, where from Truck Stop the HP variation is quite obvious, making me eager to do it. I teamed with Richard and returned that summer. Upon getting to TS, there was the bolt hanging out of the first pitch. We did HP, establishing the variation along the way.
“Yours was likely not the second ascent as you claim. … I don't recall any bolts placed other than at the belay stations”
Steve, your memory is fading. I don’t have a topo in front of me to review, but I do recall the route fairly well. In addition to the bolt in the first pitch, there were couple of bolts on the traverse which we avoided by our variation (probably used for two closely-spaced tension traverses) and a short bolt ladder (4 bolts?) higher up on a barely overhung headwall. If you don’t remember any of those bolts (perhaps understandable after 22 years) there’s no way for you to recall placing or not placing the bolt lower down. What I know is this: After getting off the route we went to SAR and were told that SG and SH had just gotten off it three weeks earlier. Given the quality of information we received from climbers who had been in the Valley continuously over the time all this happened, along with the fact that the bolt/hanger was consistent with the rest of the climb, explaining the bolt to a phantom SA that squeezed in during the three weeks between our ascents is implausible, bottom line.
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Ben Rumsen
Social climber
No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
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" Unfortuantely, I think Ron is right. The end result will be a ban, heavy fees, etc..." -
Somehow I doubt that because nobody on the ground that doesn't climb can see people nailing 1/2 way up El Cap and the average joe tourist doesn't care if you nail or whatever as long as you don't splat on the ground next to his kids.
Nobody but climbers gives a damn about a pin scar on the side of El Cap! They're worried about finding a parking space near the cafeteria for their Cadillac!! And what time Happy Hour starts.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 14, 2006 - 06:52pm PT
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SG, the details you ask for appear all over the place, including in these very forums. If you care so much, I guess you'll just have to track them down. Even the few points you treated as facts were incorrect, but, hey, when has that ever mattered to you? You have no problem publishing rumors and outright misrepresentations. So, I have no desire to engage with you on any level about what YOU think counts as the truth.
Whatever you are (or people think you are) as a climber says nothing about how you treat the value of the truth or the reputations of others. As your very first post in this thread demonstrates, you are quick to speculate about the motives and characters of climbers you don't know in your quest for "climbing purity." You would do better to seek for some personal ethics in addition to your climbing "ethics." How you treat PEOPLE matters far more than how any of us treat rock. Before he died, Harding called you one of the modern "Valley Christians." Perhaps you would have been proud to hear that from him.
Regarding calling you a liar, I didn't SEE you place the bolt, so I am not at liberty to say such a thing. I will say, however, that it is really convenient that in the three weeks from your posted FA date and when we went up on Horse Play, SOMEBODY (talk about inquiring minds want to know!) went up there and placed that ONE chicken bolt. Interesting, isn't it? I find it interesting, and more than merely suggestive. I think I'll publish my "findings" about this! Then we can trade libel suits. Should be fun, huh?
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