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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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The 8 pitch climb is about 1000' high....(but it's not a trad climb)......go for the 2nd ascent.......(It's not a great climb...but it's a 5 star adventure....)
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Mike there are many climbing areas on Federal lands on the fringes of the Navajo Nation which offer similar experiences without all the potential hassle. Hundreds of spires / towers / big walls on lands which are much less complicated to access. Sorry, no pics.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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I've climbed in the the desert a fair bit, but not on the reservation. Todd If it is not a trad climb what is it?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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young folks out there doing sh#t will rarely listen to us old folk telling them what to do and how to do it
Pal, ain't that the truth. Supertopo is where all of the old farts hang out in their august years. I bet that 95% of the posts here are from people over 30.
Did any of you listen to people over 30 when you were in your studly years?
I didn't either.....
Seriously, we should start a thread with bowel movements as a topic.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I think it was 9 pitches up...and 9 pitches back down...same way;.....we had hired a Navajo guide to take us around the Canyon;....and we were not secret of our plans to climb the mesa....he sort of chuckled,...not thinking we were serious.......we hiked around the whole mesa...and saw that it was indeed a mesa...with towering walls on all sides and no easy way up it.....we took it a step farther and rented an airplane (a pal and I both have our pilot's licenses)...and confirmed that it was a big unclimbed mesa..........
With this info.......we set anchors on the way up, knowing that we were coming down the same way;....once we summited, it was actually rather quick and academic on the way down........we had a number of ropes and alot of the lower pitches "fixed"...so we rapped, rapped, and towards the bottom.....rapped, coiled, and chucked off the ropes........the anchors were all bomber......we made sure of that...
(BASE 104;....too funny;...I think you are correct;..except that most of the posts are NOT from people over 30......but from people over 55........let's talk about our prostates.....)..
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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I might not have listened to my elders at the time.
But I certainly heard them.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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I get stopped up bad sometimes. When I can finally lay a steamer as long as my forearm, I feel pretty damn good. The preceding days are a little rough. I get in a foul mood if I get clogged up.
I've also got hair growing out of my ears and nose.
....to be young again.....
Todd still climbs all of the time. So do a couple of other old partners. What is the secret? Prunes?
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Personally....I'll wrap things up for myself on this post;..seemings as I took it upon myself to "grab the bull by the balls" on this one. Thank you for the exchange of ideas and thoughts....appreciate it all;....climber to climber, human to human....thank you for that. We chased our own tails, ran around in a circle,, and sort of ended up back at the beginning. But throughout the "journey"...we hopefully learned something about climbing on the Rez, ourselves, others viewpoints, and about an issue that is full or love, concern, passion, and mystery..........
At the end of the day, ....some of you want to give me the middle finger and some of you wish to shake my hand....call me villian or victor.....depending on how you call it;......but my kids still call me Daddy..........(I'm good with all of that......).......Goodnite ,all...and thanks again for sharing..........
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Awesome Todd thanks for the info. We have more than a few reservations up here with "rock" that would make this stuff look like gritstone.
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Q75
Trad climber
Shiprock, NM
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One more post for the comic in me.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Talkin' 'bout prostrates????
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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But for these people the rocks are a part of their history, their being, their everyday life. These places are a part of their person, their family. They have a different view of nature, in which they are a participant, versus being an observer. It is a difficult concept for us white folks to even consider.
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I think you've just described the bulk of the "lifer" climbers I have know, the majority who are white. I have never believed that so-called indigenous people have a favored-nation kind of connection to the wild places. It's hard to have a more intimate connection to the rocks than to claw up them with with hands and feet, to sweat and bleed on them and rage and cry and laugh with them, to sleep with them and in some cases to die on them. While some people insist that we have no "right" to engage the rocks in this way, and I honor this as far as I can, some part of me wonders if others know or respect what a lifer has invested in the game. Not that others should care, nor yet that we should care about their opinions. Not as young people. Opinions don't matter much till we coil the rope and become important.
But I do contend that the environment itself - and not our very human opinions and biases and regulations - is where our sacred fealty lies. Opinions change, regulations shift, and attitudes transform with time. But
the rock itself is a nonrenewable resource.
JL
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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That is a very good point Mr. Long in regards to the "lifer" climbers and their love of the wild. Here is perhaps another side to the coin.
How many "lifer" climbers can say this in regards to the land:
Their great, great, great, great, great grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great, great, great, great grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great, great, great, grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great, great, grandfather worshipped this land.
And their great grandfather worshipped this land.
And their grandfather worshipped this land.
And their father worshipped this land.
This same land where my ancestors have lived for hundreds of years?
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Anyone interested in the struggles of the Navajo Nation might be want to check out this link, which highlights the cultural genocide the US Government is currently waging on some parts of the Navajo Reservation:
http://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/forced-relocation-big-mountain
An excerpt:
"Thousands of Navajos are resisting the forced relocation because of their religious bond with their ancestral homeland. For these people, their land is their religion. Relocating them to a foreign land would be sentencing them to slow spiritual death, already evidenced in hundreds upon hundreds of broken lives.
Traditional Navajos practice their religion as their ancestors have for centuries by performing ceremonies and making prayer offerings at sacred places where they may communicate with the Creator who placed them on this land, with the responsibility to remain and care for it. In contrast to those world religions that can be celebrated anywhere, American Indian religions are not really separable from their sacred sites. Navajos who resist forced relocation are not lawless individuals but are simply obeying their Creator's instructions, passed on orally from one generation to the next."
 See more at: http://www.culturalsurvival.org/ourpublications/csq/article/forced-relocation-big-mountain#sthash.pChpfyt9.dpuf
Some of us whiteys might call this hogwash, that this is "progress", but I can assure you that to my brothers who have been told to leave their ancestral homelands this is a very real situation.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Judging another's intentions is a dangerous game. Better not to do it at all.
Look. They own the land. Think of it as a big ranch owned by Ted Turner. He would have rules, and I imagine that some of them wouldn't make climbers happy. The same thing exists on the res. Why would they let whitey walk all over their land if there is no upside to the deal?
We are incredibly lucky to have Todd's years of experience on the res and climbing there. I also remember Tom Cosgriff doing Spider Rock and some locals were trundling rocks down on them as they climbed out to the rim.
The entire saga of native peoples is mostly a sad one. One group that has embraced many of the aspects of industrial age culture is the Eskimos that I've run into in Alaska. They LIKE having heated homes and running water. The alternative is to go break off a large chunk of ice and dragging it back to the hut to melt. Their old ways were so hard that they happily take to many modern conveniences well.
Many are Christians. The Quaker missionaries brought religion to them early on. The old ways were also super harsh, and I don't think that they miss that part, either.
They are still deeply connected to the land and its animals. In a place where a jar of cranberry juice costed 10 bucks, you would go broke on store food. It is still Whale, Seal, Caribou, fish.
Caribou is the best meat I've ever eaten. Whale muktuk is also good.
I think that every white bastard should at least read "Black Elk Speaks" before seriously interacting with native peoples. Remember, it is their land, and they get to make up the rules.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Thanks rSin.
And Base, it's been a quarter century since I've read Black Elk Speaks, thanks for the reminder. As I said before, and assume many climbers would agree, Todd Gordon is not your average climber, or your average man for that manner. And that is written with honor and respect.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Quaker missionaries?
active conversions are not their strong suit.
//went to Quaker school in DC for 13 years
Albert-
So my bonds and respect for the land are weaker than a navajo because their ancestors may have had a bond?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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How many "lifer" climbers can say this in regards to the land:
I can. I was adopted and later learned that not only was I a quarter Comanche Indian, but my birth mother (who told me) adopted me off fearing that I would look like an "injun" and she didn't want to deal with that, being unwed. So some part of my bloodlines have been kicking around these parts for centuries.
But I don't believe that I somehow inherited my right to do this or that. Climbing, in particular, does not seem to be genetic, as neither of my kids care much about it.
Championing Indian rights is a noble cause but according rock rights by birthright to me, you, a red, yellow, or black man seems like a tough act to prove. On the other hand the idea of traditional grounds for a people is universal, so an all or nothing approach is likely not enforceable or even desirable save for zealots. It's a sticky issue. I'd like to hear more from our Navajo bros on the subject of territorial rights and so forth.
JL
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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You're right rSin.
Its all about family out here. They wanna stay around. Problem is, there's no work. They see stupid tourists all the time, why would they want to be one . . . ?
I told Laura (my navajo sweetie)about this thread. She's not real "traditional", but she said the first thing a traditional Navajo would think about people climbing the rocks would be "what if they get killed". Anything having to do with death is especially bad juju. It is customary to burn the belongings of a deceased loved one, even their house.
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