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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Chaz, you read the federalist papers? If not, you should... I provided links above. Tell me where Hamilton called for anything other than government involvement in the formation, training, and regulation of militias.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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as long as you all are playing fast and loose with context here...
we should all fall all over ourselves to as quickly as possible become just another Euro Socialist Democracy.
now you're making sense!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Wow, ontheedge! Well, I'm glad that your calling someone an idiot doesn't make them so.
Apparently you can't digest what the whole Federalist is saying. And I'm looking at the book of them right now, not some online post of them, so I THINK I'm getting the whole thing. lol
The passage you emphasize does indeed intend for federal involvement in the formation and regulation of the militia. I SAID in my lengthy post that "the militia" is best thought of as our present National Guard, so I'm certainly NOT denying your assertion regarding federal involvement in the militia!
What YOU are not seeing from the WHOLE Federalist we're discussing is that Hamilton distinguishes between "the people" and "the militia" on ONE and only ONE point: training! "The militia" are dedicated to a course of training that the average Joe simply cannot afford to take; AND it is better for the national economy for Joe to not be taken out of the work force. So a SUBSET of "Joes" form "the militia" and are simply longer and better TRAINED.
NOWHERE in that or any other Federalist Paper is a distinction made in terms of TYPE of armament. In fact, as I have quoted above, Hamilton PRESUMES that "the people at large" will be equally armed and equipped as the militia SO THAT they can join their militia should need arise to defend THEIR OWN LIBERTIES.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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now you're making sense!
I sense another civil war on the horizon.
edit: gotta run, so don't read "punt" into my not responding for awhile.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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I sense another civil war on the horizon.
you'll lose this one, too...
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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And nowhere does Hamilton promote arming "the people at large" with no training or government oversight. That would be IDIOTIC.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Currently, the only recognized constitutional right re guns is the right of an individual to have a gun in his house. The rest is just spew.
I suppose it's spew in the sense that none of us are federal (or even state court) judges, but I don't think the founders would object to citizens' opining on the proper interpretation of the Constitution, would they?
Anyway, your little summary is notably deficient: you forgot to mention handguns.
ksolem, I don't think anyone's addressed your point on the significance of the 2nd Amendment's explicit reference to the "people"--you'll never get a good response of what a reasonable interpretation of the 2nd Amendment would be that does not include an individual right of weapons ownership.
Could it really be that the 2nd Amendment was placed in the Bill of Rights to ensure that the army (as defined as the National Guard or the federal army or any other branch of state or federal government) is allowed to have weapons? As opposed to an army that isn't allowed to have weapons? Just makes no freaking sense.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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SUCH A FUN THREAD!!!!!!!
MORE PLEASE!!!!!!!!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Tapped the fore end an hour ago.
The rail is fixed.
Now mounting a Streamlight TLR-2 G.
Why would anyone want a handgun that takes a 30 round (H&K) 7.62 x 51mm magazine?
Vehicle interdiction!
Instant engine "off" switch.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Ahh... made the mistake of checking one last time before walking out the door. These are quickies, so:
you'll lose this one, too...
NP! As climbers we know there are fates worse than death. At least, if it comes to that, I'll die on my feet.
And nowhere does Hamilton promote arming "the people at large" with no training or government oversight. That would be IDIOTIC.
How about the very passage that got us into Federalist 29 in the first place, as quoted by ontheedge? "Little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped...."
Perhaps you have forgotten, but the "idiotic" sentiment HELD by "the people" at that time WAS that they should be FULLY armed comparable to ANY standing army. The Revolutionary War started (as was noted by somebody else up-thread) BY the British attempting to seize the armaments of the people, and THE PEOPLE rallied themselves into an impromptu militia (despite their lack of training), and kicked British butt in part because they were comparably armed.
The real "idiocy" is to presume that "the people" cannot be trusted with the defense of their own individual liberties. This has ever been the sentiment of people who want their government to tell them what to think, what to value, what to buy, and in EVERY other way (as it is now) how to live.
"The land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE...." not!
NOW I'm out the door.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Yeah, how about that? In place of your ..., how about we include the rest of the sentence:
Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.
neglect: to give little attention to; to leave unattended through carelessness
idiot: madbolter1
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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There's that pesky phrase again, "the people." This time "the people at large" just to be sure it is understood. Then he writes "in order to see that THIS not be neglected..."
But to what does "this" refer? Obviously at having "the people at large properly armed and equipped." He is saying that the people at large should be armed, and this should not be neglected, "this" being the arming of the people. It is very straight forward really.
But here, I'll save you the trouble. Ksolem: idiot.
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dirtbag
climber
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People includes corporations, according to the Supreme Court.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Ksolem: idiot.
It is funny, in a fascinated horror sort of way, to see how inconsiderate and pejorative these guys are that are ostensibly trying to convince everybody that their perspective is so "obviously" correct. I mean, is it supposed to be effective argumentative tactics to insult in the most foul ways the people you claim to have such an "obvious win" over? Looks more like tactics adopted by cowards cowering behind their online handles that merely revel in drive-by pot-shots... online only, of course!
And, "Christ," regarding the section following the ellipses, if you look up-thread, you'll see that that part has been quoted and addressed repeatedly thus far. Do you REALLY need to go over it again?
If so, then puullleeease excuse me for my "idiot" level of "neglecting" your needs.
Just let me know....
Actually, don't bother. I think the points that can be made have been made, and any non-idiot readers can see the evidence on both sides and derive an intelligent perspective. No point in further beating this dead horse.
If anything of new interest crops up, well, we'll see.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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neglect: to give little attention to; to leave unattended through carelessness
Pretty fuking simple.
in order to see that [properly arming and equipping the people] be not [left unattended through carelessness], it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.
Do we need to define "necessary" for you too?
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LarryD
climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Hey madbolter1-- thanks! Your scholarship is impressive and your analysis is the essence of clarity. It gives me hope to know that there are men such as yourself carrying the torch.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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It is funny, in a fascinated horror sort of way, to see how inconsiderate and pejorative these guys are that are ostensibly trying to convince everybody that their perspective is so "obviously" correct.
Really?
You're doing the same thing.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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Kris, the people were well armed. A. Hamilton watched untrained militias get butchered & or run when put up against well trained troops. He was adamant that future militias be well trained.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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He was also adamant that the people be armed.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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