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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jul 29, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
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Well said Brad.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 29, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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There is also significant history involved, as it sounds as if the accepted name of the wall, Lost Angel, is wrapped up in this first ascent. Lost Angel Road is the name of the road you take to get to get to the parking area for Upper Dream Canyon.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 29, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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does enhanced mean what it usually does It means you need to bring aid climbing gear - ie, the pro is bad.
I appreciated Thom's response, but at the same time found it very self absorbed. If his feelings about the route are so strong, why let it sit basically unclimbable for 25 yrs? A usable anchor and a couple pins - at least in the topo in the second edition of a guidebook published by his friend - and this never would have happened. It all reads to me like he expected people to take that runout ~13+ face as if it were a part of the FA - but got called out on it.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Jul 29, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
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Hey blah, I'm just citing Tom Byrne's account of his climb, and his naming of the wall. Not speculating on why.
Then, I called Richard Rossiter who had done some personal training for me, brought him up there, showed him the access to Upper Dream Canyon, added the 40’ entry pitch from the stream to the traverse ledge, told him that I had named the wall The Lost Angel, and pointed out my route, The Archangel.
I didn't find Tom's story any more self-absorbed than any that recounts naming a piece of nature according to our own whims.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 29, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
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Kurt wrote: a "bold" route done in 1988 has been retro bolted, without the consent of the F.A party...
Its a bummer when i see these things happen as it seems to degrade the effort of the FA party and weaken the standards set back in the day
Pretty funny reading the above and all the crap written about this bold ascent...couldn't be further from the truth.
Top down, at least a 100 attempts on a top rope and gear placed on aid. Wow...very bold.
Blah is right on this forced run out route, nothing to be tooting your horn about this one.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 29, 2013 - 03:40pm PT
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Pretty funny reading the above and all the crap written about this bold ascent...couldn't be further from the truth.
Top down, at least a 100 attempts on a top rope and gear placed on aid. Wow...very bold.
Blah is right on this forced run out route, nothing to be tooting your horn about this one.
Let the hate flow through you Bob
How do you place your 'gear' (bolts)??
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raymond phule
climber
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Jul 29, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
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How do you place your 'gear' (bolts)??
I doubt he consider his sport routes bold.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 29, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
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recap: Someone goes and retro bolts a route WITHOUT consulting the FA party. Then puts additional bolts in and fails to do the extension leaving said "stray bolts" in place.. Is that about accurate ?
Ron, it's not totally easy to figure out exactly what happened even if you read the stories from TB and CW--some of it just doesn't add up such as the conflicting accounts of the loose death-blocks.
But from what I can gather, your summary is about accurate IF you include the fact that the "FA" was a bizarre extensively-TR-rehearsed/rap bolted / aided / pre-placed gear ascent that may or may not have ended at an "off route," semi-random anchor. I haven't even tried to figure out what's going on with the extension, I'm still stuck on the first (hard) pitch.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 29, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
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Yeah, just like Jim Erickson putting up the notoriously runout and scary "Hair City" in Eldorado by placing only two bolts, on rappel, on the first ascent in 1969.
Back before sport climbing started to take off(around 1988 or so) that was the way many people did FA's even on rappel. The idea was to use as few bolts as necessary. Not the same ethic, especially with the advent of power drills, as today.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 29, 2013 - 04:53pm PT
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Everyone in the MP.com comments seemed to have no problem understanding what TB did, even before he replied.
Citing the BY in a bolting thread = mindless with nothing to add.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jul 29, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
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The BY comes up in all bolting threads within the first 20 posts or so. Generally it's completely irrelevant to what anyone is talking about.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 29, 2013 - 05:13pm PT
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On the other hand, Layton Kor rapped down to add a bolt to the crux of "The Bulge" to placate those out there a little unnerved by that original line.
I rebolted(not retrobolted!) the Bulge.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 29, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
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Oh yeah, and I moved one of Jim Erickson's two original bolts on Hair City to a better location *after* consulting with Jim as to what I proposed to do and getting his OK.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Jul 29, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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What exactly is a dog and sh#@ show? Are recently excremented dog turds placed next their canine creators and scored based on color, smell, and consistency?
It makes perfect sense if you put up a route on your property that you should be able to decide what happens with it. Most routes are put up on public lands, for everyone, no? So why shouldn't someone be able to add bolts?
On the other hand, you have to be totally lacking male genitalia to dumb down a route to your lame ability.
Schizophrenia wears me out
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 29, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
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Fluffy wrote: Let the hate flow through you Bob
How do you place your 'gear' (bolts)??
Funny Fluffy...no hate, just a sense of climbing history that all this crap mean little to nothing.
I placed bolts on lead (up to 5.12 climbing) and on rappel....what is your point?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 29, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
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Not sure why this is continuing after Chris' last post.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 29, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jul 29, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
Not sure why this is continuing after Chris' last post.
Are you new in town?
This conversation never ends.
Hey Bob, we are still here waiting for a answer on your rap bolting, retro bolting history.
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fluffy
Trad climber
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Jul 29, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
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'no hate, just a sense of climbing history that all this crap mean little to nothing.'
sure seems to mean a lot to you based on how much time and emotion you have wrapped up in it
just weird how an accomplished climber such as yourself would get so caught up in something that really doesn't involve him at all...even to the point of name calling and denigrating a fellow climber whose only 'crime' was to rehearse the moves on his route and pre-place protection.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 29, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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It isn't a style, like Lycra, its bringing the route up to standard for that area... a sport area. I could see all the old timer whining if this was Eldorado, but the other routes here are bolted completely, not what sounds to be a 25 year abandoned rap bolted project.
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ChrisWeidner
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 30, 2013 - 02:16am PT
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I've enjoyed a friendly dialogue with Thom Byrne. He has asked me to remove 5 of the 8 protection bolts I placed on Archangel and to keep my new two-bolt anchor intact. I will do this as soon as I can, which will be at the end of August (I'm going out of town Wednesday morning).
Admittedly, my logic was flawed and premature, but I approached Archangel with an honest belief that it had never been free climbed previously.
I did not intend to retro-bolt an existing trad route.
I had several reasons that I thought were solid for believing that it had not been climbed, but I stand corrected.
There are still questions surfacing regarding what I called "stray bolts." Here's what I know:
Above Archangel's anchor (at the end of the 12c climbing) were two original bolts, out of reach and heading right to what seemed to be the anchor of the unfinished project Fallen From Grace. I don't know who placed these bolts but they seemed to serve no purpose for either Archangel or any other possible free climb.
Additionally, I placed two bolts above Archangel's anchor, in line with a potential but extremely difficult free route, that lead to a two-bolt anchor which I placed at the end of the features. When I first rapped down it appeared that the climbing wouldn't be too hard so I placed the anchor and the two bolts. Turns out it's WAY harder than it appeared and I couldn't do the moves. I considered removing my two bolts and the anchor immediately but have, for now, left them as an open project. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm happy to remove them.
The "stray bolts" are the two mystery (original) bolts and my two bolts and anchor. I'll gladly remove some or all of them.
After I remove the bolts that Thom has kindly requested be removed, Archangel will once again be a serious lead, though not nearly the X-rated pitch it was when he sent it. Be especially careful above the ledge 40 feet up (5.9 to there and the first anchor). It will be very serious and insecure 5.10+ with ledge fall potential. This is the only spot where I placed two bolts close together, in an attempt to avoid a ledge fall.
I deeply appreciate Thom's kindness and his willingness to work with me on this. His 1988 send of Archangel surely ranks among the boldest ascents in the Boulder area at the time and it has so far flown completely under the radar. This ascent places Thom among the big boys of the era and he deserves much notoriety and mad respect.
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