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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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RyanD
Maybe those routes aren't TRAD anymore?
East Wall LLeap... Maybe thats now "sport"
Shite! That makes me a sport climber...
Whatever I don't care, I just love moving over stone.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
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All of the various types of climbing (including crack climbing like SR) require some acquired skill-sets to make them look effortless, skills some sport climber from Europe may not have had the opportunity to learn.
I suspect if you wish to hone your climbing skills in every faucet (the generalist) you will be somewhat scattered and get less training in the single area where your skill-sets and aptitudes are best matched. Okay, maybe there is nothing you can excel at doing, so have fun on those bold runouts. Whops, it takes a skill-set to do that? Or lack of a brain and youth?
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
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Four dimensions of rock climbing (gliding scales) to consider:
Relation to rock: Rock conquest (power) - Rock care (ethics)
Social context: Heroism/duty - Play/Having fun
Degree of adventure: Exploration - Repetition
Degree of equipment: Technical climbing - Free solo
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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rgold,
belay plate -- trad climber?
grigri -- sport climber
only quickdraws on harness -- sport climber == is face climbing in the Needles Sport
shoes and chalk bag -- boulderer, soloist, exhibitionist
crash pad -- boulderer or insomniac sleep seeking person.
RP nuts -- aid climber or Devils Tower seam climbing
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:48pm PT
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Ghoulwej, good point. Maybe they aren't trad anymore?? I'm with u on the moving over stone part for sure. Really having a good time pontificating here tho!
As for the generalist, in this day & age I think that's where it's at- although by your definition dingus u separated runouts from the generalists arsenal, why is that? A true generalist would be more likely well rounded at a lower grade limit but comfortable with all types of climbing on various stone: 5.10 gear/5.10 sport/ 5.10 R/ V10 boulder on granite/sandstone/limestone & all it's versions of choss :-)
Tarbuster, I'm glad u see the value in the term gear climb. It makes a lot of sense to me, especially since gear has changed so much since the early 70's golden era of free climbing where climbers like me were just a microcosm on the blotter on my daddy's tongue.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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While many of you guys are busy kicking the corpse,
Don't get out your coffin nails just yet as I have this one little passage to post.
It's extracted from another huge discussion we've had here on the forum, wherein I try to describe my preference for old-school trad climbing over sport climbing. And in the context of this discussion, also over the stylistic constraints circumscribed by the term gear routes, also to include head pointing or modern trad as well.
Put on your beer goggles!
Here goes an effort at describing the inherent tonality of the internal experience rendered by climbing trad, or in a nutshell to answer the simple question, why is trad good for us?
I tend to favor traditional climbing. For me there is a certain tension to the energy afforded by on-site ground-up climbing. Largo's "experiential voltage" if you will. Given my background and experience, the majority of sport climbs under the 5.12 grade tend to have too many bolts, the outcome is predictable and the exercise feels repetitive, such that the experience of leading the route lacks a certain zest.
Done from the ground up and on sight, a successfully achieved ascent has a very palatable internal energetic feel. The construct of a sport climb, which encompasses things like rappelling and succinct prior knowledge, a fairly sanitized and very safe protection scheme, and in a subtle way, yes even the communal lore of its construction -for me, these things sever the energetic tension of the route. We typically know how a route was originally done and I say that does matter. In ground-up style climbing, there is an aspect of emulation at play which is quite valuable.
When Werner says the route has a soul he's describing that energetic tension that exists for the route as a possibility. I get it more as a collusion of my internal striving with the canvas which the route represents. So for me it's a relationship and I like for that energy to be as fresh and whole as possible and ground-up climbing, whether I'm doing the first ascent or following in the footsteps of a pre-established ascent, the ground up traditional style effort does the best job of retaining that essence, best characterized as a completeness and a continuity, like an independent living thing.
So that's my sense of the peculiarly distinct internal reward conferred through trad climbing. It is something that should not be overrun. It's an artistic imperative that has fewer and fewer voices and outlets in our urbanized, formalized society. Spontaneous, fluid improvisation : we need to keep that heart alive and beating.
Cheers,
Roy
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 10, 2013 - 03:58pm PT
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It's funny how aid climbing is trad climbing where u entirely rely on equipment to ascend & free trad climbing is when you are cheating if u rest on the gear, lol. Stupid awesome rules.
Good point. How does this one work?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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Anyone remember what that Huber guy said about some 5.13 crack pitch on the Salathe?
"I am not a very good crack climber, but I have power to waste..."
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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5.10 gear/5.10 sport/ 5.10 R/ V10 boulder
I wish v10 was as easy as 5.10!
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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Ryan D,
Runouts?? Does wanting anyone else to do your runouts make you more of a man
of more of a lucky fool. "Runouts" kind of a sideline criteria to an aspect of TRAD climbing to make some feel superior, but not any test one must pass to have fun climbing and be a good climber.
IN the end you do what you HAVE to do and tell your story if you must, but hopefully you keep the pride in you big head.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
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^^^* hahaha dinguses are funny.
Edit-btw I don't climb v10, just having fun here as per the OP's request.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
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"energetic tension"....yeah, that explains exactly what if feels like when you spy some unknown (to you) crack in the back country that looks like a nice steep 5.8 or 5.9 hand crack...then, when you get up there, it is either a wyde swimfest or a bottoming, no protection a-taking horror show that either brings out the worst or the best in you (sometimes both, and we may be talking orifices).
Now, in my mind, that's trad, and I'm sure that a lot of the "trad" enthusiasts around here can relate to that scenario better than I can.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
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I remember that Huber quote Mr. Solem!
Too funny. You knew there was a sea change close at hand.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:14pm PT
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:16pm PT
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What about Velcro Wall climbing?
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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Tarbuster,
Not one to challenge your feelings. But sport climbing is about explosive moves and precise hits. Somethings I very seldom see while fuc*ing with the gear in trad climbing trying to keep bone locks in the cracks--endurance?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
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Dingus,
Do you think Sport Climbs typicaly have more predictable pro?
I ask because that sorta comes to my mind when I try to seperate the 2.
--please do not read this as an attack/insult on sport climbing--
In reality, I think even the Tradest of Trad do sport climb and may even secretly like it ;)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 04:41pm PT
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Dingus McGee:
What you are doing is drawing a distinction and a very apt one at that. I am not proposing trad climbing to the exclusion of sport climbing. I am trying to characterize what trad climbing feels like at its best, granted not as succinctly as you just characterized sport climbing, so good on you for brevity as well!
I like what you wrote about the explosive moves and precise hits. I have sport climbed and I have established a hand full of sport climbs, such that I know that you nailed it.
In the end I have always been a live and let live character. For me, it's not about which is better or which should win out over the other in terms of the playing field at large, it's about individuated value within the rainbow of potential human pursuits. I'm into understanding how things fit together and how people make choices. That's my tact.
In that piece I attempted to describe how I value trad climbing and how it can have intrinsic value, albeit at the margins, within the alphabet soup of all of these styles and approaches.
Happy Climbing,
Roy
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
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GhoulweJ,
Yes, but not without qualification. I am assuming you put the draws on the route if you want them. Even then some pieces can be so difficult to clip I have added a longer runner or (rarely) skipped the impossible clip. In sport climbing circles you can change the bolt location without near as much flack or consent like you need in Trad circles. But yes in trad climbing the pro takes a great deal more time.
Almost all Trad climbing is poor training for most sport climbing. If a trad climber comes to the sport cliff with an outdoor experience of slabs and crack climbing he most likely has not trained the muscle set necessary for sport climbing but if he strengthens at the gym he most likely will have far better foot work than those with only gym training for steep sport. Most Real rock takes good footwork.
So when I bring a trad climber to a sport cliff, I make adjustments to my choice of climbs to accommodate their skill-set. And yes, Scarpelli and I go sport climbing and mostly have a great time. By the way, Bob hates the word "trad", he does both.
added later: In sport climbing you could tape up the draw of a hard clip (closer) to your line to make the clip doable and in a sport group most would not challenge the redpoint you make doing the pro this way.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 10, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
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Fair enough.
A sign your TRAD climbing:
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