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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 28, 2013 - 11:41am PT
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The anit-government and anti-tax rhetoric of TGT, Chaz and Rick Sumner is without substance. Would anyeone deny that corporate lobbyists are writing the regulations and tax codes? So for sake of discussion let's say we agree that the lobbyists are doing so. Would they be writing these tax codes to save you (the middle class)money on your taxes? Would they write regulations to protect consumers?, inform consumers?, support free market competition?, promote healthy forests? create jobs?, cause a "trickle-down" of wealth?, encourage education?, etc. Or would they write regulations and tax codes to support their own profits? And simply pay congressman to vote for the laws they've written? Like the laws that support Monsanto's seed policies, for instance. Or the laws that allow corportations to keep profits off-shore in the Cayman Islands where they are not taxed. The banking deregulation? The federal policies that allowed for Credit Deriviative Obligations that were heavily involved in the collapse of 2008?
Meanwhile the anti-tax rhetoric is swallowed by many Americans who's taxes are increasing not decreasing. Yet the services that your taxes could pay for (SS, education, NPS, forest service, emergency services, highways, etc) are being cut. Who is benefitting from the anti-gov. rhetoric? You? Whose taxes are going down? Yours?
No, this is not new, but the level of rhetoric is ever increasing. And more importantly the level of corruption, and legal corruption if you will is extreme. The citizens united ruling made it legal, remember?
Isn't this a logical example (albeit I'm not presenting data here, I have posted references several places upthread) of how wealth is being redistributed away from the middle class toward the very rich? It's stupid for liberals to support Obama because he pretends to be a liberal. And just as stupid for conservatives to oppose Obama because he pretends to be liberal. Meanwhile Obams supports the corruption I've just explained.
How 'bout we skip the rhetoric and consider Move to Amend? i.e. amend the constitution to nullify the citizens united ruling.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Mar 28, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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Would anyone deny that corporate lobbyists are writing the regulations and tax codes?
Yes. I would. Congress is writing the tax codes, and the regulatory agencies are writing the regulations. Lobbyists are doing all they can to influence them, but lobbyists come in all stripes, and don't always get what they want. In California currently, the trial lawyer lobbyists, anti-business wing of the environmentalist lobbyists and labor union lobbyists carry the most weight, because they largely paid for the election of the current members of the majority party.
You'll be amazed to see, however, that sometimes, even influential lobbyists don't get what they want, but I suspect I'll have communication problems discussing this with you, since apparently by your definition, Obama is not a liberal (I presume you're referring to his domestic policy. To the extent he has merely veered from consensus bipartisan foreign policy of the past, I agree that he is not a reactionary leftist (who refer to themselves, paradoxically as "progressives")).
Sorry, but I don't share your degree of cynicism on this issue.
John
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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 28, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
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I'll look for the references. But several congressman have gone on record stating that congress does not write legislation. There are some congressman and several economists who address this in the documentary I referred to upthread (werenotbrokemovie.com). Corporations heavily influence the tax code and their lobbyists do write tax codes (check out the references, I'm putting them in here for people who think, not for the knee jerkers). Corporate tax rates in US are higher than any other nation! (neo-cons cite this) but they don't pays those rates!!! Their effective rates are much lower because they legally off-shore profits. Liberal Obama doesn't mention that.
Cynicism doesn't interest me, reality does. Obama did not write obamacare and it does not control healthcare costs. During the obamacare debates in congress in 2009 there were 10 healthcare lobbyists for every member of congress (that's according to npr, and yes I'm skeptical of them and all the info I receive, but I do my best to base my opinions on info). They effectively squelched single payer option by scaring the sh#t outta conservatives around the nation who have no knowledge of healthcare economics and act as if we're still in the cold war. Whether you agree with the single payer as a better system or not I think you'll agree that most Americans have little technical economic knowledge of it and yet have very strong opinions. THose opinions (IMO) were formed for them by propaganda.
The citizens united ruling has greatly influenced the elections of 2012 all around the country. Many PACs and advocacy groups (American Heritage Foundation and Americans for Prosperity are two that are funded and controlled by Koch brothers) crushed opponents by outspending on campaign propaganda. Monsanto put financial muscle against the GMO labelling in CA.
Liberal Obama puts Tim Geitner in charge of Treasury. THen Obama ignores the banking scandals and prosecutes no body. LIberal vs. conservative is a red herring to keep us all so worried about each other that we vote against the other party and accept the sell outs. It's ridiculuous to think a president shares liberal or conservative values just because they speak of those values. How gullible are we?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Mar 28, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
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In CA rates for health insurance are going to go up by 62%.
Not because of greedy insurance companies, but because of changes mandated by Obamacare.
we've been getting f*#ked by the insurance companies since before you even heard the name Obama.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 28, 2013 - 10:39pm PT
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There isn't a "wealth distribution" problem,
There's a wealth mobility problem!
The "progressive" (Marxist) solutions of regulation and redistribution only exacerbate accumulation by the nouveau nobility and stifle any mobility.
All hail the Neo-feudalists!
He's really f*#king you now Kenny.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Mar 28, 2013 - 10:54pm PT
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Hey TGT?
who spent all the money?
Who created the last 3 Depressions?
Who robbed your 401K in 2007?
The federal government
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sempervirens
climber
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Mar 29, 2013 - 01:08am PT
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I googled financial fraud prosecutions by Obama as suggested by Dr F. Yeah, I stand corrected. I found no articles about those they have prosecuted, but several articles noted no SENIOR Wall St Executives have been prosecuted. But some financial fraud has been investigated and prosecutions have been made. Link below for a 13 minute news segment about this. The points I raised are still damn valid. Wealth was shifted, and too many got away with a grand deception - some legal, some not. Ideology (lib and con)matters less than reality.
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9567
Obama Admin. Fails to Prosetcute Banking Fraud to 'Save the System'
James S. Henry commenting on PBS documentary "The Untouchables": If one of these institutions was indicted and made an example of, it would have a profound affect on the whole industry - but Obama raises money on Wall St. - January 29, 2013
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mar 29, 2013 - 01:31am PT
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LIberal vs. conservative is a red herring to keep us all so worried about each other that we vote against the other party and accept the sell outs.
Word. Whenever I hear conservatives spend all their energy attacking liberals or vice versa I think of how much they are JUST LIKE their opponents. Attack each other, don't compromise, demonize, and focus on what's wrong with someone else instead of what you can do to make things better. A bunch of stupid f*#king stupidity.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Mar 29, 2013 - 09:21am PT
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sempervirens....good analysis...we need more realist like you to cut thru the sh#t....
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 29, 2013 - 10:26am PT
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Yes we need more literalists like Sempe.The ruling class (dominated by career pols)do keep us divided,distrustful,antagonistic against each other along the artificial line of party affiliation while perpetuating and enriching themselves,ultimately at the expense of the grand experiment that was the U.S.A.Neither party holds anything close to a lock on the rational solutions needed to get this country back on track.Dr. F and his merry band of minions are mindlessly doing the bidding of one side of a two headed coin every time they spew the party line propaganda. It is our job to deconstruct their exaggerations and lies, not to bolster the arguments of the reverse side of the coin , but rather to open some eyes and progress forward on rational middle ground.
If the people can ever wrest control of government back from the monstrosity of the ruling class perhaps a new constitutional amendment could be adopted to limit control of it by special interests. To be effective, this amendment would have to ban all campaign contributions, strictly limit terms, and make registration for government service mandatory for all citizens.Say at a certain age all citizens are required to put their hat in the ring for a political post of their choice.Tests winnow out a number of candidates and those remaining provide a verifiable biography along with an essay laying out what they hope to accomplish. This is all posted via available media and the people vote their choice for representation for a single term.After their term, having done their duty, the amateur pol returns to private life. Sounds like pie in the sky doesn't it?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 29, 2013 - 10:49am PT
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when are you planning on starting?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mar 29, 2013 - 11:39am PT
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Dr. F and his merry band of minions are mindlessly doing the bidding of one side of a two headed coin every time they spew the party line propaganda. It is our job to deconstruct their exaggerations and lies, not to bolster the arguments of the reverse side of the coin , but rather to open some eyes and progress forward on rational middle ground.
So let's hear who you think on the right is doing this. It's easy to criticize the people who you usually don't agree with. Let's see the courage to deconstruct those on the right as well. Then I'll believe you actually want the rational middle ground.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Mar 29, 2013 - 11:45am PT
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How about for starters; Geore W. Bush and most of his cabinet and appointees,John McCain, Lindsey Graham,Rob Portman,etc, etc.Basically most of the old guard and those who's opinions change as fast as the political wind. Now,can you offer up some of the other side?
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Mar 29, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
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I make up my own minimum wage for anyone that works for me, why would you want your employees struggling?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 29, 2013 - 12:14pm PT
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why would you want your employees struggling?
the less you pay them, the more you get to keep for yourself
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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Mar 29, 2013 - 12:17pm PT
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When you pay the minimum you get minimal returns. I'm never gonna be rich so if I pay someone with an unemployed wife and a kid a few extra bucks it's not changing much for me. Am I redistributing my wealth?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 29, 2013 - 12:19pm PT
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If people had fewer kids that stayed in school and got a decent education
employers would have to pay them more - supply and demand, pure and simple.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 29, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
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The Churches should go on a lowering the population campaign, and give everyone birth control and teach sex education
+1
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Mar 29, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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Well, I thought I did but as medical science has now shown the brain's frontal
lobe development (where logic occurs) sorely lags behind a young adult's ego.
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