Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
chichalimona
Social climber
baltimore
|
|
Do these people who were hurt - who incidentally certainly have my sympathy - have any family or other resources for a few bucks to get them home? I mean isn't that all they need is a flight home to pull their sh#t together?
they have raised over $20,000 since the incident.
|
|
chichalimona
Social climber
baltimore
|
|
They listed over $10,000 in damages on their blog. They also alluded to not knowing what medical expenses would be and hotel costs during treatment. The donations are continuing to pour in. Here is the donation site: https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/peru-fund-help-jenny-meghan-and-jed
Yesterday, it was at nearly $20,000, so I believe there has been a withdrawal since then.
|
|
Reeotch
Trad climber
4 Corners Area
|
|
What bothers me about all this is that the victims have not in any way, at least not as far as I've read both here and elsewhere, taken much responsibility for their own part in escalating this situation. The refusal to ID themselves is a glaring example. They don't seem to see anything wrong with this.
I don't care what their intentions were. People need to take responsibility for the actual consequences of their own actions, intended or not.
They're lucky to be alive. IMO
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
+1000 with Bruce and others here. They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).
|
|
sempervirens
climber
|
|
There is not enough info to make the conclusions Riley jumps to. Why make all those assumptions just to back up your judgement? What makes a person need to make that judgement of others?
At this point, we have more information about Riley. IMO, we have enough info to judge Riley, and it's not looking good.
People are damning those three for drinking beer and "out of bounds" camping in a foreign land and having expensive Patagonia gear. How can we know how selfish, privileged, ignorant or belligerent they were?
|
|
pat
Trad climber
estes park
|
|
Thanks for the excellent blog post, is it Amanda? Cattle rustlers makes sense, it is probably who the villagers thought they were at first before any contact was made. I can't imagine they often have tourists from the US stopping in to camp on their land.
I have never been to South America and I can't say that I know much about the history of the region although I did date a Peruvian girl here in the US and I remember her explaining some of the problems around Cuzco. To be honest I imagined the situation probably being almost exactly what you described in your post and I have been trying to find more information on the history of the region to see if this is true.
Reading the blog posts and looking at the pictures of these two you can see quite a bit of naivety and ignorance. For example there are several photos on the blog of locals in Colombia staring angrily at the camera, kind of ironic.
It is sad this incident has stirred the racist pot in Peru, I can see that in many of the comments below the article I posted.
My ultimate thoughts on the matter though will always be that these three didn't deserve any of this, end of story. There are always people looking to blame the victims (I am talking about some of the posters on this forum and others, not the blogger mentioned above) similar to how the villagers living in this area were probably blamed in the past for their plight. Blaming these three for being beaten almost to death is the same thing and shows the same lack of empathy so pervasive in the world today.
-Patrick
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).
The word gumption comes to mind.
You really have to hand it to these guys!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
You know the Nigerians are following this closely.
|
|
chichalimona
Social climber
baltimore
|
|
So what?
I'm not trying to justify anything, just giving the background info. We still have only one side of the story here, and that is clearly not enough.
|
|
Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
|
|
They may have been totally innocent victims for all I care.
What gets me is that they are not necessarily soliciting contributions, but accepting them.
Even if a third party raised money from strangers to help me out in a time of need, I wouldn't accept those funds.
But, that's just how I roll. I'm hard as f*#k. Sh#t goes wrong? Well, I just recalibrate my plans.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
One way ticket to Nigeria with an iPhone?
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
The history of white men rolling up in the Andes. This element of the incident is perhaps the most complex and the most difficult to summarize in a brief article, but let's just say there are 500 years of history of white dudes coming to town, taking over, and submitting people with violence and oppression to a slew of undesirable foreign conditions. Conquest, forced conversion, forced labor, expropriation of communal lands, education reform, the confusion of the internal war in which mostly Quechua-speaking Peruvians were caught between the Peruvian military and the Shining Path, forced sterilizations, multinational mining companies, and yes, even encroaching tourism...
Yes but in this case, "white men" did not roll up anywhere. There was one guy and two women.
I think there's a little cultural naivety in thinking that the villagers actually thought that a group of 1 gringo and 2 (very non-threatening looking) gringas were banditos. Seems far more likely that they looked like prey. Which they were.
None of us know what the hell happened--those who pretend to are giant trolls or complete fools, I can't tell which.
Edit,
I'm also in the group that thinks this is interesting not just in itself, but also to gauge reactions to it. Consider the following:
Thanks for the excellent blog post, is it Amanda? Cattle rustlers makes sense, it is probably who the villagers thought they were at first before any contact was made That so far doesn't make sense to me, that what can you say. Remember a group of 2 gringos and 1 gringa were just hanging out, planning to camp (with or without permission, who knows), drinking 2/3 beer each. Makes zero sense to me.
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
Thanks BigMike, but we will get by, hopefully. As I have written before, there are other Supertopians in far more need than Jennie and I.
Let us know Pat. The Taco seems to take care of its own. I haven't always been in a position to contribute, but a this time I could spare a couple to help a brother out. You are worthy sir.
as to the money they pulled it at 15,000ish and re-started it.
*** UPDATE 1/4/13 12pm: This fund has been reopened for additional donations. Jenny, Jed and Meghan will receive the initial transfer of funds today. Thank you for your support. Please feel free to share this link to others.
There is a pattern here. They set up a paypal account for friends and family to contribute before they left. They managed to convince a camper company that they would provide enough exposure with their blog that they gave them a 15,000$ unit for free....
So naturally when they post about their horrible misfortune their friends set up a fund for them and it just happens to go viral... The power of the written word eh?
The Peruvian report still refers back to their story.. The only "independent" report we have is the one Riley posted and that's not confirmed as far as I'm concerned until I see the original source, not a repost on some comments section..
|
|
Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
|
|
+1000 with Bruce and others here. They lost all sympathy from me by engaging in any requests for money for computers, cameras, coats, and other tangible luxuries (and I don't care who posted the request).
YES, +1001. PLEASE! I read the first version that didn't have the list of items and felt bad for them, then I read the extended version-SUPERLAME!!! ...and I can't believe they are actually getting money-so entitled, I now feel NO SYMPATHY. Especially with how they jacked up the prices of a lot of their items. I can see how these tribe people might be angered & frustrated at the division of wealth in the world.
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
Bruce I agree entirely.. It certainly seems excessive, self reliance is at the far end of these guys spectrum....
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
If you solicit funds from the great blogosphere you better be 100% transparent in your intentions for the funds and 100% accountable for their use.
To all the people (and especially to the blowhards) who gave us shìt for questioning the way the Bachar and John Long fundraisers were handled, I dare you to explain to us what exactly is wrong with this line of thinking. Double dare...
|
|
drewsky
climber
Seattle
|
|
This thread really needs a summary of facts as it appears a number of people posting haven't followed the whole story and are simply issuing knee-jerk responses to other slanderous posts. My interest in this story was piqued, as were the interests of many on this forum, by the problematic account of events given by the alleged victims of the attack. It's impossible not to have ambivalent feelings about their experience (at least from their account) especially as it seems, at best, to be the result of a series of bad decisions coupled with cultural misunderstanding and bad luck; at worst it is either a fiction on their part or a case of an entire village coordinating an attack on relatively wealthy travelers.
Here's a factual review:
-An incident befell three American travelers near or in a village in the Cuzco region of Peru. From their account, it was a brazen attack and robbery by an entire village stemming from a refusal to produce official documents. The victims, however, may well have been attempting to camp on private land without permission and said refusal to identify themselves may have provoked suspicion. In any case, an incident escalated that involved rock throwing by villagers, the usage of pepper spray by the 'attackees', roadblocks and a vehicle accident.
-After the incident, a blog post by one of the victims includes an account of the incident as well as a much-criticized list of stolen or lost possessions along with their estimated values. Criticisms include inflation of said values as well as the moral implications of posting such a list. To her credit, one of the victims has stated that the posting was actually originally intended for an agency for whom such a list was a requirement; said list has been removed from her blog post.
-One of the victims friends has set up a much-criticized donations account in aid of the victims expenses incurred during the incident. Criticisms have mainly regarded the alleged avarice of the victims and their material concerns, despite the fact that they themselves didn't set up the account. Donations for an amount of approximately $20,000 or more have accumulated via 200 or more willing donors.
-On this forum, the predominant sentiment is that these are clueless Americans who, in responding improperly to a confrontation of some kind by Peruvian natives, were beaten and probably robbed. Many posts have indicated either implicitly or explicitly that the outcome was well deserved. Similarly, the subsequent financial aid and outreach to the travelers has been framed in several ways: as suspicious, in that the story is either fabricated or at least being used for monetary gain; as 'weak', in that the travelers can't roll with the punches and are somehow demeaned by seeking any sort of help with their situation; as avaricious, in that seeking any help beyond medical expenses and basic personal needs indicates greed.
My main issue with the responses here (I am aware that I've chosen to read posts and, now, to participate) is the obsession with the morality of issuing financial aid to the victims. Even though this incident could, in all honesty, have entirely been due to errors made by the travelers, I don't see how that proscribes them seeking or receiving aid. Remember that it was a friend of their family that opened the CrowdTilt account and that it was 200 or more willing donors who subsequently grew the fund. The internet is a powerful fundraising tool in part because it makes it so convenient to transfer funds (at a click of the mouse). $25k may well be just enough to cover their medical expenses and the replacement of some of their possessions. Further, people willing to donate to the fund doesn't necessarily call into question the intentions of the alleged victims.
The snap judgements made in this forum, while typical, fall short of the mark in this case (and in many others). Only the eventual responses and actions of the victims of the incident themselves, coupled with a better sense of the incident itself, if available, will allow for any real insight. I would think it unlikely to ever have enough information to make a real informed opinion about this event. However, for the sake of repetition: the fact that the victims have family and friends who are willing to fund their recovery (including of lost possessions) doesn't necessarily vilify the victims. It's easy to pontificate here about the questionable morality of material pursuit, the idiocy of American travelers, about the conspiracy theories of a fabricated incident wholly for the purpose of monetary gain.
In the end, there's a greater-than-zero percent chance of this being a fabrication. There's a chance that the travelers incited the whole event in a drunken frenzy. There's a chance that they are clueless travelers more concerned over their truck and their iPods than they are over their own safety. But I would say that the greatest chances lie in the incident having actually happened; that it was a misunderstanding whereby both parties share some blame for the outcome; that the money collected thereafter via the CrowdTilt fund was willingly donated and will be used to recoup costs for the victims, end of story; that in the end this is probably an isolated incident resulting from poor decision-making, 'first world' entitlement, cultural misunderstanding and bad luck. Travelers should obviously be aware of language barriers, cultural differences and regional safety issues and should know that they cannot simply go anywhere at any time without potential consequences.
I don't see what insight can be gained, however, by endlessly lambasting them on this forum without a complete understanding of the events which may never be forthcoming. You're not required to donate to their fund; neither were the willing donors. The morality of such a fund doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on society, the human race, or on whichever hyperbolic extension you choose. Our culture is one that's become more and more entitled, with less and less common sense. This could well be a result of such machinations, but who really can say with any surety?
|
|
pat
Trad climber
estes park
|
|
Well said Drewsky!
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
^^^Pat, I do not agree.
Drewsky, eloquent post, so to speak, but you come across as knowing more than any of us. However, it appears to me that you are engaging in speculation, just like most of us on this thread. Perhaps I am wrong and you have a direct line to all of the facts, from both sides and the authorities.
You say "factual". Here's a factual review
How can you say that? Do you have all the facts? We have only heard one side of the story. And don't think the use of the word "review" gives you a bye. Not in my book. Having been a journalist for some 40 years in five countries, on nationals and TV, I can smell when somebody is trying to present facts that they do not have.
Substantiate, substantiate, substantiate, as my editors use to tell me as I was starting out. And none of us, as far as I can see, on this thread, can substantiate anything but speculation (and our gut feelings, which is really not good enough for objectivity... subjectivity, yes), including you Drewsky. Unless of course, to iterate, you know "facts' that the rest of us do not.
As far as the setting up of fund-raising, how do any of us know that it was not done at the instigation of said travelers? We don't. So your long-winded post is no more, no better, no less, no right, or no wrong that what a lot have posted on this thread.
Unless you know something that none of us do. But to my thinking, you come across as more superior, more all-knowing and more clued-in than the rest of us. But beware and be careful, you may wind up with egg on your face, as many of us may.
Drewsky, maybe it is just me, but you seem to come across just as arrogant and judgmental as most of us concerning this matter. This is not a personal dig at you, as such.
I for one, unlike Pat, am not impressed any more by your post than some other posts on this thread. No offence, dude, unless you have some insight that others on this thread do not.
I would reckon that we all are speculating, but what I think strikes a sour note with many of us, is the, shall we say, crassness of the three looking for handouts.
As far as I am concerned, there are far better people in need that I can contribute money to (if I had it).
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!